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Lit What felt like the most near-universe-breaking things in both Legends and New EU?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Ghost, Jun 2, 2018.

  1. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    What felt like the most "near-universe-breaking" things in both Legends and New EU?

    The events/characters/objects/history/etc that felt like they almost broke the believability and verisimilitude of the Star Wars universe?



    Over the years, it seems like the biggest instances of this have been:

    * Dark Empire having it so Palpatine never really died in ROTJ (Old Canon)

    * TCW having it so Maul never really died in TPM... even if the execution was good once you accepted Maul didn't die, just the fact that he survived is still near-universe-breaking to many (Old Canon and New Canon)

    * TCW's introduction of the Mortis Trio (Old Canon and New Canon)

    * how The Last Jedi handled Luke Skywalker (New Canon)

    * Daala becoming legitimate Chief of State, with the galaxy calling her a "common-sense" choice for a "unifying" figure, in Invincible (Old Canon)

    * Mortis becoming relevant to the Abeloth storyline suddenly, and the way it was handled (Old Canon)

    * How canon kept changing the reasons why Jacen fell to the dark side despite him being a point-of-view character when it happened, including retconning Vergere into a Sith (Old Canon)

    * the Hyperspace Ram in The Last Jedi, why it's not used more often (New Canon)

    * how the Sequel Trilogy has handled the New Republic, the First Order, and the state of the galaxy so far, with poor on-screen explanation of the transition from ROTJ's ending to the Sequel Trilogy (New Canon)

    * the survival of Ahsoka and Ezra in New Canon, as well as various purge survivors in Old Canon too (Old Canon and New Canon)

    * the off-screen evolution of Jacen, Luke, the New Jedi Order, and the state of Coruscant and the galaxy overall, between The Unifying Force and The Joiner King (Old Canon)

    * Luke rejecting the idea of redemption in general, and most characters moving quickly from "ignore and excuse Jacen" to "Jacen must be killed at all costs" in Legacy of the Force (Old Canon)

    * the off-screen sudden Corellian patriotism of Han, and Leia going along with it because it was "Han's turn," in Betrayal, with no consequences later (Old Canon)

    * the off-screen evolution of the Jedi and the galaxy between the more unique Tales of the Jedi to the PT-imitating Knights of the Old Republic . . . . and the Legacy Jedi, the Je'Daii, and other incarnations of the Jedi throughout their long history being too similar to the PT Jedi even when it didn't make sense, similar with the Republic and galaxy in general (Old Canon)

    * the Yuuzhan Vong's relationship with the Force in The New Jedi Order, and to a lesser extent the special nature of the ysalamiri (Old Canon)

    * Waru, the Anti-Force, and other related Pre-NJO weird stuff (Old Canon)


    Again, I don't personally agree that all of the above almost broke believability, but they are common sentiments I've heard over here throughout the years.





    What are some others that you remember throughout the years?

    And which of them felt like the most "near-universe-breaking" things to you?
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  2. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    TLJ in general.

    * The First Order wins
    * The New Republic folds like a nervous gambler
    * Its treatment of Luke
    * Its treatment of Kylo's corruption
    * The fact you don't need to be trained to be a lightsaber grandmaster
     
  3. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    Disagree on most, because I believe Star Wars is a franchise that NEEDS to evolve and, yes, even bring us a future without Jedi-Sith rule. If the ST ACTUALLY ends on a note deciding that both are equally bad or something like that, I am willing to actually forgive a lot of its mistakes, because evolution IS required. For any franchise.

    My issue with universal-breaking things tend to be those relating to technology rather than storyline. For example, hyperspace ramming resulting in the literal destruction of fleets and planets. This has been a thing in both Legends and New Canon, and in both I see it as a pretty big problem and universe-breaking sort of tech. It brings up questions on why even have space battles at all if you can just suicide ram everything. Its one thing I wish New Canon had avoided, since I count it as a flaw in the old EU.
     
  4. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I take that as the view that if you think Superman and Lex Luthor are the same, you have misunderstood the characters.

    Same with Jedi and Sith.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  5. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 19, 2016
    Though I'm by no means against it, the fact that several Jedi were alive during the OT does make things a bit weird.
     
  6. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    I should have remembered to add the Hyperspace Ram to the list...

    but your reaction to the rest of the list in your first paragraph doesn't actually reflect on the list at all. How are people being upset about Palpatine/Maul not dying, or changing why Jacen fell to the dark side, have to do with "evolving" and being beyond "Jedi-Sith rule"?
     
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  7. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I wouldn't mind Kanan or Ezra being alive but Ahsoka is just bizarre.
     
  8. SheaHublin

    SheaHublin Jedi Master star 2

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    Feb 15, 2008
    Nothing truly Universe-breaking in the EU, although the very idea that all the games, books, comics, and lore that I'd enjoyed were all of a sudden "Legends" and no longer official was a franchise breaker. I have no interest in the anything 2015 or later.

    That being said, I don't really regard the most recent Clone Wars TV show or any of the Old Republic MMO stuff as counting toward "Legends", particularly since they do contradict a lot of previously congruent stories. They all still fit, but it isn't an easy task to harmonize it all. It doesn't help that the Old Republic is still ongoing and therefore still subject to change and new lore developments.
     
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  9. Outsourced

    Outsourced Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 10, 2017
    Then you haven't looked deep enough into Legends.
     
  10. SheaHublin

    SheaHublin Jedi Master star 2

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    Feb 15, 2008
    Read through a few of my posts and then say that I haven't truly delved deeply into "Legends". There really isn't truly anything there that can't somehow be reconciled and made to work, even if it does involve a LOT of rationalizing and explaining away.
     
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  11. Outsourced

    Outsourced Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 10, 2017
    I feel like we have different rationale for something that "breaks" canon. If it requires a lot of rationalizing and explaining away, I consider it breaking legends.
     
  12. SheaHublin

    SheaHublin Jedi Master star 2

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    Feb 15, 2008
    Just regarding something as "breaking" is the easy way out. It's actually really rewarding to try and make things fit together as best as possible. There's also many different methodologies that can be used to accomplish this, too. You might really enjoy the following:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20110722011326/http://www.domuspublica.net/on_methodology.html

    http://web.archive.org/web/20110709080027/http://www.domuspublica.net/on_polylingualism.html
     
  13. Grievousdude

    Grievousdude Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 27, 2013
    Aside from Palpatine returning in Dark Empire which has already been mentioned, the end of The Force Unleashed 2 springs to mind. It's ridiculous how Vader survived all that lightning. Almost makes you wonder if the game makers even watched ROTJ. You could put it down to it being a game thing but even still it was overkill.


    At 4:50 in the video.
     
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  14. Outsourced

    Outsourced Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 10, 2017
    I agree, to an extent. But I just cannot reconcile things like, say, Otherspace, within the same universe.
     
  15. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    Oh I agree, but I don't mean that they're the same. I just mean that Star Wars need to advance beyond having self-sacrificing Sith messing up and ruining everything for themselves based on their self-destructive ideology and Jedi trying to stop them and often falling to a similar entrapment of self-importance. I'm not saying they should be done away with entirely, I'm saying new pathways should be introduced. Individual Force Users without groups, maybe even IK-style government-mandated Force Orders. THEN you have either a Jedi or Sith Order return, perhaps after a decade or two of the Galaxy adapting without them, and the new Force ideals and Galaxy as a whole gets to react to them, without them necessarily being center-stage.

    Sorry my bad, I skimmed through it. My issue was when you mentioned off-screen evolution, I think a group doesn't necessarily need to remain a static thing. Its existed for thousands of years, and Lucas has implied that the Jedi in the PT are at their worst and most blind stage. I also thing the Vong were an interesting and new enemy, and a sign of evolution that the Star Wars franchise desperately needs, and achieved with old Legends.

    I can accept Palpatine not dying, since he did die, he just came back to life. I could see a master-planner like Sheev having backups. I can't see the same for Maul though, who was literally just a random mook. I very much agree he should've remained dead. He was only brought back because he looks good for merchandising and action figures.

    On Ahsoka, I don't mind her coming back that much. I just mind them introducing time travel to bring her back when it could've been said she just walked away from the wreckage. Its esoteric non-sense tier time travel without a real necessity to it. I'd put it on the same level as Waru, which I agree was a weird invincible creature that was mentioned once and never brought back again, but really didn't need to be there. I've grown more accepting of the Mortis stuff, I just take it as it was described by Xendor. They're just a Force Group like any other, but an exceptionally strong one.
     
  16. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 7

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    Oct 13, 2003
    The issue many had wasn't that they evolved, but that their off-screen evolution within 5 years was so drastic.
    "It'll take decades to rebuild, let's have the capital on Denon for now... oh look, it's like the war never happened!"
    "Jacen bowing to the will of the Force by developing his empathy, refusing to make the ends justify the means... Jacen having no empathy and now saying the ends always justify the means."
    "The Jedi evolving philosophically... to the Jedi becoming a bunch of dark-side-using torturers"

    And one of the other points is that the Jedi DON'T evolve, and everything became a copy of their PT versions.

    Also, like I said, this isn't MY personal list, but a list of things over the years that I've heard fans say breaks the reality of the Star Wars Universe for them,

    @Havoc123
     
  17. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    Nah they became Prequel Jedi.

    - Attempting to coup a legitimate government just because they don't agree with it - Check
    - Overzealous and even okay with killing their own members so long as they're not "Dark Side slaves"/"Daala puppets" - Check
    - Utterly worthless aside from a few good apples without the guidance of their Grandmaster (Yoda/Luke) - Check

    I agree, Coruscant didn't need to be the capital. The Old Core becoming a sort of backwater would've been a great idea to justify how it easily defected to the Fel Empire a century later. It's a lot of things that aren't really universe-breaking, but they just wanted to go back to the status quo. They've always been half-way on whether they want to keep up that "Star Wars status quo" or move on to new things. Been like that ever since the NJO, with Legends leaning towards the new and New Canon towards the old.
     
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  18. Darth Caliban

    Darth Caliban Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 17, 2015
    As i mentioned a few times before, one of the biggest issues for me is the change in the aesthetics, technology and the way the jedi are depicted between TOTJ and KOTOR.

    It's a bit sad for me, because i'm very fond of TOTJ and wished the KOTOR would have been like it, instead of using a similar style and elements from the Prequels.
     
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  19. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    - Tales of the Jedi: Golden Age of the Sith and Fall of the Sith Empire are completely inconsistent with Dark Lords of the Sith. I'm surprised that Dark Lords of the Sith didn't get a Special Edition.
    - Why wasn't Palpatine aware of a Rebel Base inside a Sith temple that he was quite familiar with?
    - If Force-sensitivity can be cloned, why was it never done in the movies?
    Agreed. KOTOR should have been set longer after TOTJ.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
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  20. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    There's literally tens of thousands of Sith Temples across the galaxy so no need for the Rebels to be sensed on Yavin.
     
  21. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    Normally I'd feel like this kind of thread is too negative to post in, but I've brought this up before and I actually find it a little interesting: the Dark Nest Trilogy and its followups were the thing that killed the myth of the EU as this unique cohesive fictional continuity for me. It was just too jarring in too many ways to accept, and after that it became much more obvious to me where things were awkward patches that were never meant to be the way they are (favorite example: Dark Empire getting pushed back to 10 ABY because Zahn didn't want to acknowledge it even though it's clearly an immediately post-ROTJ story when you look at it). In the long run I actually think this was probably for the best; it's a lot more useful to have that 'distance' when it comes to talking about a fictional universe that's the product of hundreds or thousands of different minds.
     
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  22. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I think any time the Empire is portrayed as reformed, a potentially just form of government, or basically anything BUT the equivalent of Space Nazis is a mistake.

    It's evil, always will be evil, and impossible to reform.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2018
  23. FiveFireRings

    FiveFireRings Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Nov 26, 2017
    That's a pretty good list inasmuch as it covers most stuff that's discussed that way, and I can't think of many personal "wait, what?" moments that you don't hit. Just a few:

    -Leia remembering her mother. That's a pretty big one for me.
    -Mismatches between the end of R1 and the beginning of ANH.
    -The fact that many efforts were made to imply that R2 and 3PO are on the exact same ship at the end of ROTS as at the beginning of ANH and yet both Legends and Canon have rolled with the VFX model error and made it not so.
    -Boba Fett being introduced as a Mandalorian but somehow (usually) not being one.
     
  24. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

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    Jul 30, 2000
    I think Vader surviving The Force Unleashed 2 makes him look more badass.

    But then I think Palpatine's lightning can just be THAT stronger.
     
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  25. Yunzabit

    Yunzabit Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 5, 2015
    For me it’s Rey and Ben Solo’s strength in the Force. It’s astronomical and heavily implied to surpass Luke’s and Luke in Old Canon was said to be what Anakin would have been had he reached his full potential. The fact that they are possibly more Force sensitive than Anakin is crazy. The guy was off the charts. I feel like Ben and Rey may have 30,000+ midi-chlorian counts.
     
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