Lit What felt like the most near-universe-breaking things in both Legends and New EU?

I don't think Qui-Gon's one lesson had an impact on Anakin's ability to destroy the Droid Control Ship (hardly a super weapon btw, just a refurbished trade ship). Anakin had an innate talent to pilot (according to old Legends he was piloting since the age of 6) which was enhanced by his extremely high Force sensitivity (perhaps the highest ever in a living being). But as I wrote, at the time of TPM, Anakin was already piloting podracers for couple of years and had at least theoretical knowledge of ship controls. Personally, I see Anakin as a piloting version of Mozart in the SW universe.

Luke was, similar to his father, flying speeders (with very similar controls to X-Wings) for several years in the canyons of Tatooine, while being shot at by the Sand People, so he was far from a beginner when he destroyed the Death Star. And the telekinesis came after 3 years of consciously working on his Force abilities, constantly being in action for the Rebellion and actively seeking out Jedi knowledge. And it took Luke lots of practice just to get to the level of telekinesis he has in the beginning of TESB. Just read Heir to the Jedi novel, where Luke is struggling in the beginning just to move a noodle.

Now lets come to Rey. Why is Rey such a great pilot? What did she pilot on Jakku? Why does she automatically know how to fly the Falcon like a pro? I can see why she is so good with melee weapons, she probably had to fight other scavengers and worse scum since she was a little girl. But the fact Rey can do mind tricks after only couple of days max like a fully trained Jedi Knight is just weird. And the whole, she got it from Kylo's mind explanation, doesn't cut it for me. Same for the telekinesis. At the end of TLJ, she moves giant boulders without any serious visible effort, yet Yoda, 900 year old Jedi Master, is struggling with holding the metal pillar in AOTC. Honestly, Rey is maybe lacking in the spiritual side of being a Jedi, but when it comes to her Force combat abilities, the way she's portrayed in TFA and TLJ, she could easily take out most of the TCW era Jedi only after couple days of training. And that's immersion breaking. At least for me.

 

The flying boulders scene was originally meant for Luke in episode 7, to show that he was this super powerful wizard. It was taken out of the story(along with Luke himself). I think it would have been cool to have Rey and be a team through 7 and 8. They have a very likeable pairing/presense together on screen. And maybe give Han a different protege.

 

Is performing mind tricks the sole province of a fully-trained Jedi Knight? Has there been some canon confirmation that Padawans or Younglings couldn't perform that ability? Rey does a direct monkey-see-monkey-do with her mind powers anyway, thanks to Kylo, so it works just fine.

As for Yoda and the pillar, there's the explanation that he's exhausted from mustering the strength to fight Dooku, but that doesn't especially hold up in light of all the acrobatics he pulls off over the next three years in Clone Wars and ROTS. Him struggling with the pillar seems more like Lucas forgetting his own lore (again) to give Dooku a means to escape the Contractual Lightsaber Duel. Rey shouldn't struggle with the boulders, because "lifting rocks" is the one thing she thinks the Force is good for; she's got no preconceptions about it she needs to unlearn, unlike Luke. It's the spiritual side she hasn't got yet, as you say. Doing Force grunt work is peanuts compared to that.

But what makes you think she could "take out most of the TCW-era Jedi"? She does a mind trick, pulls a lightsaber, duels an injured opponent, lifts some rocks, and fights some non-Force-sensitive guardsmen alongside a duelling buddy. It's hardly Grand Master stuff.

 

The false equivalency here is astounding. I don't think it's a big deal but you should at least not be so absurd.

You compared Luke struggling for ages to get his lightsaber to twitch and fly into his hand, after years of work (ESB was 2 years after ANH IIRC and new canon has already established that Luke went through a variety of training during that time) to Rey moving a mountain of rocks after knowing about the force for a week? She barely even got trained by Luke either. Probably less than Luke even did by Obi-Wan in ANH.

I'm not saying it's a big deal, it can be explained, but it's not an equal comparison. Suggesting equivalency between Luke and Rey's experience and abilities is astonishingly absurd.

edit: and it's clearly been accepted that she had an unprecedented level of ability for her training experience otherwise the whole "mind meld learning from Kylo" would never have been devised in the first place, because it wouldn't have been needed

 

Yep, I agree. But I think their reasoning was that Luke would completely overshadow Rey and all the new characters (which is true). And JJ and other people in Lucasfilm wanted to primarily focus on their new characters. Which is probably why they came with the decision to have each ST movie with only one OT character in a main role. Han for VII, Luke for VIII and Leia for IX, which will sadly never happen now

Padawans and younglings can perform mind tricks of course, but not on a level of a Knight or Master, and they don't always succeed. And this goes also for Knights and Masters, they also fail sometimes, depending on the person they're using the mind trick on. Luke saw Obi-Wan perform the mind trick on the stormtroopers on Tatooine, yet that doesn't mean that Luke has suddenly a Master level ability of it. In fact, it takes him quite some time to learn this ability. On the other hand, Rey is able to convince the Daniel Craig stormtrooper to release her, leave the room and drop his weapon. Yeah, stormtroopers of the FO are just brainwashed children, so not particularly strong minded, but Rey managed to convince the trooper to go completely against his "programming". That's a pretty high level of mind trick for a complete beginner if you ask me.

I can go with the explanation that Rey has no preconceptions she needs to unlearn, so its much easier for her to do Force telekinesis and other Force powers. But it does portray poor Luke as a very bad student then. Basically what took Rey only couple of days, because she has completely open mind, took Luke years to learn.

For Rey taking out most of the TCW-era Jedi, I think people sometimes forget that the characters we follow in the PT are some of the most powerful Jedi in the entire Order. Your average Joe Jedi has some abilities and a lightsaber, but few trained guys with blasters will take him down. I think when George was making the PT, he consciously decided to power down the Jedi. They're still powerful and can do incredible things, but they're not some indestructible supermen. With the ST and Rey, I feel like Lucasfilm decided to make Force users extremely powerful again. For me, the stuff Rey does in TFA and TLJ already seems too powerful for her level of training (or lack off) and therefore "near universe breaking" to quote the name of this thread. But I'm happy for people who have no problems with it and enjoy the ST movies and the character of Rey as it is.

 

Dooku in TCW, someone captured by space pirates, and made casual jokes at by Obi-Wan in his presence, then everybody just kinda goes back to there corners like it ain't no thing. You'd never believe these things happened in between the scenes Lee's Dooku and McGregor's Obi-Wan share in ATOC and ROTS.

Rey's unequaled aptitude with the Falcon, both in piloting and repairing, that Han Solo can only wonder at, coming off the heels of her dismissing it as an unusable pile of junk.

 

Always hated that. It's why I can't consider TCW in the same canon universe as the prequels. It just doesn't make any sense.

Almost as bad as Maul and his robot legs

 

@Jedi Princess Whoo boy, where to start.

"Destroys superweapon" should not be treated as a separate skill as "being a great pilot". His piloting skills are clearly established, and he destroys the ship partially because of those piloting skills (and even then he didn't mean to destroy it, it happened on accident). And calling it a superweapon is a huge stretch.

Again, he destroys the super-weapon by being a great pilot. He demonstrates apptitude in one skill, and uses that skill to save the day in the climax. Other than the training remote, he dosn't reflect blaster bolts until ROTJ. And he dosn't use telekinesis until 2 years later.

Unlike Anakin and Luke's piloting skills, we don't have a reason for Rey's piloting skills. Tie in materials say she practiced in a flight simulator, but it's not in the film. Rey's skill with a melee weapon is admittidedly established when she smacks some thugs, but personally I don't see how wielding a staff with two hands prepares you to wield a legendary lazer sword often described as being difficult to control. (Though I won't gripe too hard about this since even Legends was inconsistent on this). And she's later able to pull off a mind trick besides no one ever mentioning it to her the way Obi-wan explained it to Luke in ANH.

Finally, I think calling what Maz and Kylo said to her "training" is disingenuous. Qui-gon told Anakin to trust his instincts and feelings. Obi-wan told Luke similar advice. All Maz told her was that speech about seeing eyes in different people, and all Kylo told her was that he would train her. I admit I could be wrong, it's been a while since I saw it, but IIRC she gets basically no instruction for how to use the Force, no equivalent to "trust your feelings". And yet she uses a mind trick, uses telekinesis, and beats kylo in a saber fight. Sure Kylo was weakened, but he's got years of experience on her and a reputation as "Jedi Killer". Come on.

Look I don't think Rey is "uber powerful" as some have said, but I do think here progression was rushed and not thought out very well, because the filmakers thought "you can't have a Star Wars movie without a lightsaber battle!" but didn't set it up properly, just like they wanted a "underdog vs massive empire" story but didn't explain/set up that very well.

 

Where and when does Luke learn the mind trick?

Sure. Yoda even says Luke's too old to be trained; he's picked up bad habits. Rey's managed to pick up a couple less than Luke.

But again, what has Rey displayed that makes you think she's "extremely powerful"? She's got the same "raw strength" as Kylo, sure, but all we've seen of that is a mind trick, telekinesis of the sort even a Broom Boy can manage, and using a melee weapon.

 

I don't remember. I'm not sure he even used it in the current continuity so far before ROTJ. The point is, Luke saw Obi-Wan use it, but it took Luke long time before he was able to do the same thing on a same level. It took Rey few moments.

Luke's not much older than Rey in ESB. Basically, the ST turned Luke into a dufus when it comes to learning how to use the Force, while Rey is portrayed as absolute Force prodigy that can use any Force power in a very short time after she has the chance to observe it. To use a real world example, just because I would observe someone playing a very difficult piece of music on violin, it doesn't mean I would be able to play it myself now. I would still need lots of practice. Not in the case of Rey. To go back to my Mozart analogy, Rey is basically a Force Mozart. If she's this good after only few days with barely any training, after 20 years of real training and practice, she would be able to take on Yoda, Palpatine, Luke and Anakin at the same time and wipe the floor with them. That's immersion breaking and takes away from other characters, like Luke and Anakin, for me.

Don't get me started on the Broom Boy... But anyways, you think the Broom Boy could lift the giant boulders on Crait? And Kylo had years of training first with Luke and than with Snoke. Yet Rey is basically his equal (some would say even more powerful than him). Let's look at it like this: If Luke would have a lightsaber duel with Rey after they both learned about their Force abilities a week ago, how do you think it would go?

 

I list "destroys superweapon" as a separate skill because it is one. There are tons of great pilots in Star Wars. You don't get to be Red Leader or Gold Leader without being a great pilot. But destroying a superweapon is considered impossible even by great pilots. This is why I call the droid control ship a superweapon; it's not in-universe, but it has the same role narratively. Great pilots repeatedly remind us that the deflector shields and weapons are too strong; there is something more than great piloting going on when the Force uses a person to take out a weapon like this.

Well sure, if you take out examples it's easy to make it look like it takes a long time for him to learn this stuff. He does the training remote blind. Just because the movie has been out for forty years, doesn't make that any less remarkable.

And here's the thing about him using telekinesis in The Empire Strikes Back: you can bring up all the books you want to, but those came out years later. Otherwise the complaint is just that we don't have the explanation yet. Luke struggles with a noodle in a book that came out in 2015; I look forward to seeing a similar story for Rey in 2050.

Except it is. Finn asked her wear she learned to pilot like that; Rey says she's flown some ships but never left the planet, the circumstances of her life can fill in the rest for us, given that she works for Unkar Plutt and knows the whole history of the Millennium Falcon.

You can see her learn during the fight with Kylo. She starts that fight swinging the lightsaber as if she expects the counterweight of her staff. It's only after surrendering control to the Force that she uses her weapon correctly.

And I don't know how "often" the lightsaber is described as difficult to control. I can only think of one kinda, when Kanan is teaching Sabine how to use one, and Rey does have the Force flowing through her.

The film establishes her as someone who has had to raise herself, who has had to teach herself or die. The fact that she can experience a violent version of the mind trick at Kylo's hands and figures out how to do a smaller, less violent version of that on her own makes perfect sense with everything else in this story.

You are.

"I'm no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it. The light... It's always been there. It will guide you."

That's the most relevant part, but Rey receives exactly as much training from Maz Kanata as Luke does from Obi-Wan.

I think Rey's progression is established very logically, it just hasn't been filtered through the fandom subconscious for forty years yet.

 

That's my point. There seems to be an assumption that it takes years of training for a Jedi to perform a mind trick, but I've not seen anything in canon suggesting that's the case. We've never seen Luke using it until four years later—and he does so then with confidence, at least suggesting he knows how to do it—so we can't say "it took him a long time", because we've not seen the first attempt like we have with Rey. And she struggled with it at first.

So it's all right for Anakin to be Force Mozart, but not Rey? And again, you're assuming training is akin to levelling up your powers in a video game. It doesn't mean the longer she trains the more powerful she becomes until she's able to fling Star Destroyers around. She already has the raw strength. I'd say Palpatine was born with the raw power he has throughout the saga.

From what we've seen of Jedi training, it's learning specific techniques, but spirituality is the main objective. "The deepest commitment, the most serious mind". What Yoda specifically doesn't teach Luke is simple Force tricks.

I didn't suggest or imply Broom Boy could lift the rocks. Rey and Kylo have the same "raw strength"—which, if you want to get all prequel-y about it, is because the Force lifted them both up to be paragons of light and dark, in the same way it created Anakin to restore balance.

Lightsaber duelling isn't Force powers. Rey would probably win considering she's had more experience with melee weapons.

 

"Destroys a superweapon" isn't even an ability. It's an achievement, facilitated by ability. Stating it as though it's somehow relevant to the level of force training of an individual is bizarre to say the least.

Neither are any of the "natural" abilities mentioned. None of them are even remotely relevant to the discussion because the entire point of the discussion is active force-using ability through training or lack thereof.

Natural pilot? Irrelevant. Destroyed a superweapon? Irrelevant.

Actively using the force, telekinesis, mind tricks, combat skills etc --> Relevant. There's no comparison. Rey is light years ahead of anything in previously established canon in this regard.

 

In Before the Awakening Rey practices piloting with simulations

 

Wait, how is Natural Pilot irrelevant while combat skills are relevant? And why is Destroying a Superweapon via the use of the Force irrelevant while other uses of the Force by Rey are relevant?

 

Surely that should be self explanatory? Not to mention I already explained it anyway.

"Natural" pilot . . . it's all there in the description. We're talking about learned and executed skills.

"Destroying a superweapon" isn't a measurable and comparable skill. Whether the force was involved or not is irrelevant in this context. Lando did it. Doesn't mean he was an overpowered force user.

The point of the discussion was comparing force using ability in relation to training. "Natural" abilities are by definition irrelevant.

 

Regardless, the origin of this discussion was the plot point that Rey gained a lot her ability by mind-melding with Kylo, which I pointed out as potentially universe-breaking in it's own right, if you can just learn advanced force skills within days using that method.

And clearly Rey does have an unusually advanced, or abbreviated at least, level of training than what we've seen before, otherwise the mind-meld learning explanation never would have been required. Trying to argue against it and suggesting that she's no more advanced for her training time as Luke or Anakin is dumb on so many levels.

 

I have a fan theory that will explain everything:

Rey is an empty vessel that is being used by the force gods to accomplish their goals.

...think about it

 

Poe destroys a superweapon (the biggest one yet) in TFA and so far, I don't think he's Force sensitive. But yes, I agree, Anakin destroying the Droid Control Ship in TPM was a direct callback by George to Luke destroying the Death Star in ANH. Though it makes me wonder, who was originally supposed to destroy the SKB in TFA? We know that originally, Poe was supposed to die in the beginning of the movie and it was only after Oscar Isaac convinced JJ not to kill him, they rewrote the script. Perhaps Rey would have destroyed the SKB from the inside with the help of Finn, Han and Chewie?

Luke struggles with the lightsaber in the beginning of TESB as well. Its only after he trains with Yoda he starts to be good at telekinesis. Interestingly, its the same with deflecting the blaster bolts on the Falcon in ANH. He has Obi-Wan there to help him focus. Both the OT and the PT are pretty clear in that you need a teacher to start consciously developing your Force powers, at least in the beginning. And there really is no space to have novels about Rey developing her Force powers in between TFA and TLJ, cause there's no time for that. With Luke, you have three years, with Rey, you have three seconds. But I hope there are at least few months between TLJ and IX, and we can get a novel written from Rey's point of view that will show us how she's taking all that has happened to her in the last few days. Cause her entire life got completely changed and from a nobody on Jakku, she became perhaps the most important person in the galaxy in like one week. When she finally gets some time to sit down and think about it, it could be pretty overwhelming.

She knows the history of the Falcon, but did she ever fly it? And flying some ships in the atmosphere of a planet when nobody's shooting at you is pretty far from what she's doing when they're running from the FO special forces TIE Fighters. But I do like that even RJ realised this and has Chewie flying the Falcon on Crait, not Rey.

Maybe. Only time will tell, though honestly, I don't think people will be discussing the ST 40 years from now, but they'll still be talking about the OT. And the fact that we had 40 years of supplemental material with Luke helped A LOT. I don't think will have that with Rey. With the constant stream of new movies (and TV shows) there is no time to focus on just few characters and to develop long stories with them in books. And after IX is finished, Daisy Ridley will probably want to move on with her life and career, and not be typecasted as it happened to Mark Hamill.

This "assumption" is what is shown in the movies. We do see Luke slowly progressing in his Force abilities between the OT movies. He doesn't get automatically good at using the Force just because he saw other people using it or just because he now knows he has the power. And the PT also shows that it takes years to become a Jedi. Obi-Wan is Qui-Gon's Padawan for more than a decade, which was supposed to be the standard length before the Clone Wars. The Legends books also supported this view. The cases in Legends where the character progresses super quickly in his or her Force powers are video games like the Jedi Knight series or KOTOR. So if anything, Rey's progression in the ST is very similar to how Kyle Katarn progressed in the Jedi Knight game, where Kyle kept learning new Force powers every time he had some of the bad guys use them on him.

I never wrote Anakin was a Force Mozart, read again, but even if I did, with Anakin it would be more all right than with Rey, as Anakin is the Chosen One, a being born out of the Force. And as I wrote above, its Rey's progression in the ST which is closer to how characters progress in SW video games with their Force powers.

But to use a real world analogy, I always saw the Jedi Knights as fantasy versions of medieval samurai mixed with Buddhist monks and European medieval knight orders. Both the spiritual and physical parts are important, and you have to train in both for years to get better at them. And this is how the Jedi were in my opinion portrayed in both the OT and the PT. Just because you have the raw strength doesn't mean you'll get good in just few days or weeks, same as in martial arts. It helps a lot to have it in the beginning, but you still need to train and learn. In the ST, I feel like they're saying the "physical" part of the Force is easy, its the "spiritual" one that is important and takes time. And if this is their take, then its wrong and I completely disagree with it. Both physical and spiritual progression need time and training, and are equally important. Mens sana in corpore sano.

Lightsaber duelling is Force powers as well. Because the Jedi can sense instinctively what will happen in the future, they are much better duellists and melee fighters in general than non-Force sensitive beings. Its not used just for deflecting blaster bolts. And the Force can make the Jedi much faster, stronger and resilient during a duel. Yoda, Palpatine and Dooku are all examples of this. So yeah, Rey would definitely win. Not just because she's better in melee fighting, but also because she has much deeper connection and conscious use of the Force in one week, than Luke had in 3 years since he learned about it. My impression is that even ROTJ Luke would have serious troubles against TLJ Rey.

And I heard about this Force paragons theory thing for Kylo and Rey in the ST. Honestly, I don't think this was the intention of JJ and Larry when they wrote TFA. I can see where this theory comes from and perhaps they will end up using it by the end of IX, but right now, I think its just a fan theory that was created because some fans wanted to explain why Rey is so good so quickly in the ST. Which I believe is the crux of this discussion.

Yeah, I know. It was a nice attempt by the author to explain why is a poor desert scavenger so good at piloting the Falcon.

Eh, after they put Maul in Solo, I wouldn't be surprised if they would show the Mortis gods in IX

And sorry for the long post.

 

If pushing buttons to accidentally destroy the Lukrehulk's main reactor counts as a Force power, I guess Jar Jar IS a Sith lord after all. He used the same ability to to accidentally crush a crab droid, destroy pirate tanks and drop boomas on the Trade Federation army.

 

I also suspect something very similar. I believe Rey was created either the Force Gods from Mortis or the Whills because of Kylo.

 

In that case, re: Kylo, where there's a Whill, there's a Rey.

I'll show myself out now.

 

Neither of those things are shown in the movies: Luke progressing between the movies isn't shown, and we don't know how long he took to get the hang of any of his abilities, aside from his Force pull -- which ESB implies he tries for the first time in that wampa scene, and manages it as soon as he opens himself to the Force. And Obi-Wan being Qui-Gon's Padawan for a decade is from the EU, not the movies, so the movies don't show that either.

And Rey's Force awakening is profound enough to be sensed by Snoke and Kylo, so she's still a cut above the rest, presumably.

"Darkness rises, and light to meet it". Snoke talks about Rey being Kylo's equal in the Force, and Luke says they both have the same raw strength that terrifies him. The movies confirm they're both powerful beings beyond the expectations of the likes of Luke and others. It's not just a theory.

 

Wrong, it's been 2 years and it's been described in several canon sources Luke's continued training and research on the force between films, eg. the infamous noodle telekinesis in Heir to the Jedi.

Yeah as far as I'm concerned there's no issue with Rey being a new chosen one or being more natural powerful than anything we've seen before. If that's the way they want to go with it then so be it, it's a cool (and not exactly new) concept.

It's the people trying to deny that Rey is especially powerful, or that her progressive is especially fast, that I find confusing.

 

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree, cause in my opinion the movies very clearly show Luke's progression and development of his Force abilities from the moment he finds out his father was a Jedi to the moment his father dies as a Jedi in his hands. What the beginning of TESB shows us in the wampa scene is that Luke is now consciously aware of his Force powers, but he doesn't have full control of them. He needs a teacher, which is why Obi-Wan sends him to Dagobah. The movies clearly show us that just because you're aware of your Force connection, it doesn't mean you'll be able to use the Force consciously. In time, you can perhaps learn some basic stuff, but for real control you need a teacher. It shows us that Luke didn't make much progress in those three years between ANH and TESB because he had no teacher.

And the movies very clearly show us that Padawans are with their Masters for at least a decade. Anakin becomes Obi-Wan's Padawan when he's 9 and he's still Obi-Wan's Padawan a decade later in AOTC. In AOTC we also see bunch of younglings that look like they're 4 or 5, so we know they become Padawans at a later age. And if we include TCW animated series, Ahsoka becomes Anakin's Padawan when she's 14, so we know that younglings usually become Padawans in their early/mid teens (Anakin was an exception because of his special circumstances and Obi-Wan's promise to Qui-Gon). Combine all of this knowledge shown in the movies (and TCW movie) and its very easy to come to the conclusion that Obi-Wan was Qui-Gon's Padawan for at least a decade in the beginning of TPM, even without reading any EU stuff.

And I really hope they will explain this in IX.

The fact both Rey and Kylo have huge raw strength in the Force is shown in the ST, I agree, but the whole theory that Rey and Kylo are some Force paragons of light and dark is based only on taking that one line from Snoke completely literally. As I wrote, I really hope JJ will explain all of this in IX and not leave it as an open mystery and if they will go with the whole Force paragons theory than okay, at least we'll have some explanation why is Rey so powerful and learns everything so quickly, but considering its JJ, I'm really afraid he's just gonna leave it as an unanswered mystery box for fans to argue over forever.