What Happen to the Serious Fan Films???

Maybe in some cases, it's more a case of dedication than limitation, though.

 

That's a big honkin' "Maybe", though. I mean...full disclosure: even I, probably the strongest Rebellion-era advocate on TFN Fan Films, wrote up a treatment of a Jedi/Force-based fan film BEFORE I thought up the Rebellion-centric Last Remnants plotline. It's an easy trap to fall into, writing about Jedi and the Force, almost automatic... It's like going into a restaurant that you've been to a million times, where the staff knows you well enough that you can actually order 'The usual,' and they'll bring it to you, knowing exactly what you mean; every now and then you have to stop yourself and go, "Waitaminit...lemme look at the menu and see if that's <i>REALLY</i> what I want. Maybe there's something I ought to try that I haven't had a bajillion times before. Variety is the spice of life, and it's high time I shook things up a little, you know?"
Well...that's what I feel really needs to happen with fan films; we've been ordering the usual for far too long...it's high time we tried the other things on the menu.

So...dedication, limitation...it's all the same thing, really. Fact is that we're stagnating, and it's time--past time--we looked at a larger picture of the GFFA.

 

Sorry, I have to jump in and disagree with this as well.

There is nothing that will overcome bad storytelling. If the script is bad, the movie's bad; no matter how well the other departments executed their responsibilities, they were still taking a poor marching order. Personally I think when the other things are great it just accentuates the problems in the story -- because you can't hide behind anything else being the cause of the film's failure.

At the same time, I don't believe 100% in holding fan films (or other low-budget films) to the same standards as real films. The difference in resources should, I think, scale one's expectations accordingly. You can't expect a filmmaker funding their film on a wing and a prayer to be able to afford a camera that gives them 35mm depth of field or more than a couple stops of exposure, so the saturation may be low, focus will be sharp, and highlights may be blown out. But it doesn't cost extra to frame a shot properly, so in that sense there's no excuse.

When it comes to writing, on the one hand that's the least expensive part of the process. Aside from trying to write within your means, it doesn't cost you any more to write a good script than a bad one. But at the same time, it's a lot more difficult to do creatively. Writing is hard work, and I wonder if the preponderance of "the usual" isn't perhaps due to one of the reasons I've heard a lot of people turn to making a Star Wars film in the first place: the work's already done for them. It's familiar, the rules are laid out, and they can experiment with form and function in a pre-existing structure. And because that structure has become so heavily Jedi-centric, so perhaps has the "practice".

Call it lazy if you like, but a lot of artists learn their craft by duplicating the work of those who have gone before (painters, for example, often learn by reproducing various paintings -- not for show or sale, of course, just to discover the techniques for themselves), after which they do their own thing. Perhaps those filmmakers who are interested in narrative filmmaking don't see fan films so much as an end in themselves, but a "safety zone" to practice other elements of the craft such as shooting action, working with bluescreen, etc.

 

Excellent points, Dorkman. I agree completely.

 

Yeah, I've heard that argument of yours before, and there's still one critical flaw in it. You are implying that the one who orders "the usual" does so from habit. But there are also these people who have already tried out the whole menu and decided that "the usual" was what they liked the most. Therefore, when they go to this restaurant, they order that because that's what they, personally, like the most. And they won't order anything else, unless they want to eat something that they don't like as much as "the usual".

Same applies here. There are Star Wars-fans out there who are not into the storyline of the original trilogy at all. There are fans who like Star Wars not because of the space battles and the huge universe, but because of the Jedi and the lightsabers. I do not agree with these fans at all, since I prefer the original trilogy over the prequels, but one cannot deny that these fans exist and that nothing would make more sense for them than making a fanfilm about their favorite aspect of Star Wars: Jedi and lightsabers.

Stagnation might be true, but as far as I have experienced, many fanfilmers actually make their film for their own satisfaction, and not to help the genre evolve.

 

I am one of those fans that didn't like OT story.I had read the books before I saw the films and
it was more about the fact the GL had managed to make the GFFA seem huge and real. Thats what made me a star wars fan. As for fan films I think that most people see the force and Jedi vs Sith
to be the main elements of the star wars universe So thats what they focus on. you don't have to
agree with it but thats the way it seems to me. That or I am not the only one the finds the lightsabre dam cool.

I think that the one major themes that is missed a lot is fear. Almost everyone is in some way
motivated by fear.

 

Except that it's my experience that most people DO fall into a routine, a certain mindset, a paradigm if you will. Few people seem to have the imagination to be innovative enough to break out of a mold, to not follow the herd. Hell, I pride myself on being original, following my own path instead of bowing to popular opinion, and yet even I bloody nearly made a lightsaber film!
With all the lightsaber fan films out there, essentially being representative of the fan film community, it would be awfully difficult for someone who feels inspired to make their own fan film to NOT jump right into that particular trap without even noticing it.

So, no...that's not a critical flaw. I think that with the exotic and varied menu the GFFA has to offer, the fact that something like 85% to 90% of the people chose lightsabers as their 'usual' points more toward my premise than yours...otherwise more people would have chosen different 'usuals'.

...which is part of the problem and part of what really ought to change. Yes, a fan film can and should be made for your own satisfaction, but not exclusively so; at least half should be the intention that your film--fan or otherwise--is both seen and enjoyed by other people.

 

You know, I've often found that actual "plot" doesn't matter so much. There's probably a distinction between "plot" and "story" or some weird distinction somewhere... but in my opinion it usually all DOES come down to the way it's told.

You know... I can't tell you the actual PLOT of any of... really, ANY of the James Bond movies I've seen (1.) because I've probably forgotten (because I didn't care and apparently it didn't matter) and 2.) because I didn't understand them in the first place), but I still totally dug the movies. It comes down to the way it's told (although admittedly bond may be a bad example of that).

The "plots" of most of my favorite movies don't sound that epic when you just break it down (excluding 1; "A pilot finds a jetpack and fights Nazi's with it, and ends up blowing up a Dirigible"), but a lot of times it comes down to the vibe or mood of the movie.

Eh, as usual, I have no real point, except to say that there could still be made a "jedi/sith must battle story" that was completely enthralling and new, because it did stuff with the material people hadn't thought of before.

 

DarthDodoBird, you're arguing for style over substance, something I'll probably fight till the end of my days. I think far too many movies lately have been exactly that: trying to achieve a certain "cool factor", while not telling a story I have any interest at all in seeing.

ALL of my most favorite movies emphasize plot and character first, style and action second...that's actually much of WHY they're my favorite movies! Most of them tell a story that I wish I could be part of myself, or contain people I wish I knew or wish I had as friends. That's a very, very large part of their appeal.
But it seems many movies these days are made as little more than excuses to show off technology and/or martial arts styles; precious few seem to emphasize what I feel is the most important part for long-lasting appeal: the story and the people involved in it. Being flashy can only take you so far.

And, alas, that's been the issue with most fan films these days, too. It seems that precious few of them are made for the love of Star Wars, but rather for the love of fighting with a glowing sword while dressed in a bathrobe. And recently there was a discussion in the Social Thread in which many people here admitted to, you know, only kinda sorta actually liking Star Wars in the first place! <--- and that's how my face looked after reading that.

In a way, it almost seems like a misnomer to call what people do here "Star Wars fan films" anymore. Sure, there's Star Wars elements in 'em, but precious few seem to be telling a Star Wars story so much as a lightsaber story.
I suppose it's not unreasonable to call that a sign of the times, but it's also not unreasonable to call that a Bad Thingâ?¢.

 

No, I'm not fighting style over substance at all (although I'm a big fan of a few (Advent Children = awesome stuff... and FLCL. Though not as good of an example)).

"Cool" isn't "Cool" until you build up the context for it, anyway.

What I was trying to say but ended up not saying at all was that with good characters you can care about ANYTHING. For me characters come before even story. The story can be anything. Doesn't matter much, people won't care, if there isn't a reason for them to get emotionally involved with it.

A lot of movies seem to have the plot first, and the characters are just kinda tossed about it in, they're there only to facilitate showing MORE of the plot, whereas you can have a whole movie about a couple of pretty darn good characters.

For example "The bomb is in the building! It's gonna blow!" doesn't do anything for anyone. No one's heart is racing at the mention of a bomb blowing up a non-existent building. But if we have one of our characters (which we care about for whatever reason) in the building, even if thousands of other people are going to die, that's the only one we care about, and a lot of people don't seem to get that. A guy getting revenge on a gang? We dont' care. Because they killed his father? Ehhh... still don't care. What if we show the guy crying a ton? That demonstrates his humanity, and shows HE cares... but still don't care.

But then again, most of the most dramatic moments in movies that I love are small moments that have been blown up into huge dramatic moments because of the script. In fact, usually MOREso, because while I may not be able to relate to cutting a blue wire, I can relate to... I dunno. Whatever. I'm off topic.

 

Actually, it seems to me that most movies have FX and fight choreography first, and only then do they think about plot or characters...that's the problem.

 

Well aye, but that's only around these parts . You get away from the CG guys are eventually someone has to rely on plot.

I more label things like that effects tests anyway, and in that context, they don't bother me at all.

(Also? I edited my previous post, but you were darn fast on the draw)

 

Well, no, actually...my entire fan film is CG, which is why it's taking me quite a few years to finish the @#$%er. But as I see it, CGI is just a medium, much like claymation, live-action, or whatever else people might make a film in. I DON'T see it as the point of the film...it all started with an idea and characters and a script. I started modeling the characters in 3D while I was casting the fan film, but only because I knew that my story was just not doable in live-action without a massive budget that I knew I wasn't going to have.

Well, they bother me in any context, really; George Lucas himself is on record as saying that a special effect without a story is a very boring thing.

The solution? Get it right the first time.

 

Point 1.) You know what I meant . I'm one of the first people to defend films others label as having "too much CG" and get nothing but irked when people say "they should have spent more time on the script and less on the CG", as if it's a trade-off.

All I was referring to were folks who made films for CG's own sake, and that the only people who can do that are CG folks, and so if you go away from the CG folks, there have to be other incentives, and more often it's a story.

Point 2.) Heh, well, that quote's not really applicable, because, again, they're FX tests, in which the goal is to get better at FX, not tell a story, so that if they ever DO make a film with a story the FX will be good enough not to draw people out of the moment. I see no reason for an FX test to have a plot, even if they people making em call em "movies", because hey, making movies is more fun than doing FX tests, and whatever it takes to get more practice, go for it.

Point 3.)

 

Well, yeah, but...technically and realistically speaking, I'M CG folk, really. Yet what matters most to me is telling a Star Wars story in the Star Wars way because I'm a Star Wars fan. So...I guess what I'm saying is that I'm an exception to that category because I consider CG to be a medium rather than an end in and of itself.

No...they're not. That's kinna the point.
What we were talking about was this: Actually, it seems to me that most movies have FX and fight choreography first, and only then do they think about plot or characters...that's the problem.
We're not talking FX tests, we're talking fan films: full-on, allegedly-containing-a-story, fan films. Yet fan films which amount to no more than an FX test, ultimately, despite claims to the contrary.
So when you replied: I more label things like that effects tests anyway, and in that context, they don't bother me at all.
...it sure sounds as if you're saying that you label fan films like that as FX tests regardless of the stated intent of the filmmakers. Hence my response in the same vein.
It honestly feels as if we're talking at cross purposes at this point, and from my perspective it's you who has shifted gears on us unannounced. Just sayin'...

Yes, well...I'm used to THAT reaction.

 

Shifted gears? I don't even have gears.

I manifest most of these opinions at whim, and rarely even know what I'm debating (even now!). I'll state now I don't even know my opinion well enough to define it, and don't know why I'm filling this screen with text.

To address the point, which is apparently "Actually, it seems to me that most movies have FX and fight choreography first, and only then do they think about plot or characters...that's the problem" I just figured it was because they were more fun to make, and more instantly gratifying (if you can call anything involving rotoscoping 'instant'). Wait... who was it around here who referred to these types of tests as "movie masterbation" or whatever?

I dunno... when watching a movie from someone I think it's usually pretty easy to see what their goal was when making it. Personally, my only goal is really to entertain, and I find a little "gee-whiz-bang!" helps that, even if just to keep the short attention span folk (such as... myself) interested. Also kind of a cheat, I guess, as until I totally figure out how to get folks to care about characters and have some sort of emotional involvement I gotta go other routes (rather hit-and-miss in that regard).

You can usually tell someone's goal in making the movie when you watch it, and if they're goal's just to make FX it's an FX movie, and any critiques to them about story or whatever aren't really needed, because they're not relevant to the goal of the project (A criteria I've found works for myself when judging a film is to base the end result off of what their goal with the movie was, and how accurately/successfully they achieved it. I guess occasionally you have to make an assumption as to their goal, but it's usually pretty obvious).

And even if you DO just do an FX test, Star Wars makes it so EASY to make it a "Real Life Movie!"... add the Star Wars thingy at the beginning, that darn scroll, the soundtrack, and flippin' ending credits- BAM! "Real Life Movie!". So everyone will call everything and it's mom a "Real Life Movie". But no. They're FX movies/tests. Wearing a movie outfit. Because that's more fun

But where we differ is in thinking that's a "problem", apparently. I don't consider it the duty (nor would I imply do you) of everyone on this forum to make movies that please me. I assume they're on here to make flicks almost primarily for "fun". Some folks get their kicks out of doing large projects, and find it rewarding to see the pieces come together and have a big ol' honken' ending product you can kick out and go "Here we go!". I'm one of those folks, kinda.

Others, as has been pointed out repeatedly, just get a kick out of seeing themselves with a lightsaber jumping around, Or making tons of short little FX tests (thus getting that feeling of accomplishment we get, but more frequently), and would find the concept of spending YEARS on a single project pointless, exhausting, and not much fun at all, and I see no need to obligate them to do anything beyond what they're doing, as long as they dig it. Heck, it IS fun.

And in the end it's basically always like this. Everyone doodles around as a kid, but only a few stick with it and really turn it into an art form. Every other person I meet these days says they play guitar, but only a small handful actually care enough to develop it into an instrument of accurately conveying what they want it to. I'm fine with there being a sea of people just enjoying themselves, and every once in a while out of that emerging some epic beast of a film.

*rereads your post...* Wait, yes, that I label movies FX tests despite the creator's claims to the contrary is EXACTLY what I'm saying. I'm a dick like that. *Hence my response in the same vein*.... Same vein being, OH! Your quote from George. Ah. Got it. You're right, I missed the point on that one, kind of, although I still say that critiquing story in an FX test is a pretty futile & pointless exercise. *ponders going back and re-reading THIS post to see if it's still relevant... decides to

 

Ah, that was exactly my point, thanks. Because before, you were universalizing; now you are talking about most people, something I did not contradict. I only said that not all people were like this, while I did not say that this doesn't probably apply to most of them.
I just don't like generalizations, that's why I had to correct you. And apparently, it worked.

I do disagree here. At most, half of your intention should be your audience rather than your freedom (unless you're making something commercial you need to make money with). Because otherwise, that would mean that you're making your films more to please other people than to please yourself, and that's something that should only apply to a job or beneficence, but not to a hobby. Of course, it's great if people like your stuff. But it's not good if you don't like your stuff yourself.

I'll try to express it in lightsaber terms (even though you won't like that): if I did the lightsaber effects my way and the way I think they look best, and people didn't like them; and then I show them some horrible AotC-style sabers I made, and they love them, it would be the better choice, audience-wise, to make the sabers look AotC-ish, no matter how much I dislike this look. But still, I won't do them AotC-style, because it's more important that I like my saber effects the way they are. So, I wouldn't give a crap about what they said, and make the lightsaber effects my way.

 

Actually, it kinna pissed me off. And is continuing to do so.
That kind of pedantry has always been deeply annoying; it's like enforcing certain persnickety PC speech codes with regards to race or gender, trying to force people to be careful instead of casual with their speech, forcing them to be on their guard all the time for fear of making a casual and reasonable step that might, however, offend some over-sensitive morality-Nazi.

But those are the rules we play by, so too bad.

But that's just it: I started with something that would please me...but I also think about the audience. So I'm thinking, "What would please me...AND please someone else? Sure, I love the story I came up with, but what's the point of making it if other people aren't going to love it, too? I mean, people are gonna SEE this...and I'd prefer they don't think it sucks. Well, let's see...if I do this and this, DON'T do that, and use this technique here...ah! I've got something that'll satisfy everything that'll make me happy with my fan film, but now I've also made it into something others might totally dig, something with potential entertaining and lasting value! Rock and roll!"

But what you seem to be advocating is to not EVER think about that, to make it 100% for yourself...yet still show it to other people. Sure, on paper that means we MIGHT get a better fan film because it's more honest and not audience-driven, not demographics-driven...but that's only works with professional filmmakers.
Let's face it...a lot of the people making fan films these days are people who SAW a fan film--and probably one of the lightsaber-choreography-only fan films, too--and decided that they wanted to make one too. They have no film experience, no technique, no nuthin'...just stars in their eyes, the dream of looking like a hero on-screen, and probably the thought that 'lightsabers are wicked cool!' in their heads.
Well, this is where The Formula got it wrong, ultimately: a Star Wars fan film really ought to be telling a new Star Wars story, not just about the filmic masturbation of being seen fighting like a Jedi on the damn internet. Otherwise it's not even a fan film, it's a 'Look at me! Look at me!' film...and why would anybody but YOU--and maybe your grandma--want to see THAT?

But again...why would you make this thing if you didn't want people

 

It has not so much to do with pedantry, than with argumentation. You used that restaurant example as an argument for why people should make something different, and were - apparently - fully aware of the fact that there ARE people that your example does not apply to, but you conveniently left that part out to make your argument look stronger. So I pointed out its weak point, not because I really care for minorities or am a morality-Nazi (speaking of it, I do live in Austria, so you dug up a pretty awkward example here), but because a more complete argument is better for the discussion as a whole.

Nope. Well, maybe that's what I seem to do, but that's actually not what I do, nor what I said. My point was simply not to put the audience before yourself. I don't say that you should ignore other people's opinions completely, or not think about what other people might say. But if something is important to you, and you want to keep it, and you are de facto completely free to chose what you want, because you don't exactly need to sell it to people... why not make what you like more? Look at a true artist like Picasso, for example. I don't think that most people back then liked what La Guernica looked like. But did he care? No.

Besides the fact that YOU consider the looks of a lightsaber a minor thing, while I care about them much more... you do realize that this was an example after all, right? This applies to storylines, plots, characters or whatever you might want to focus on as well.
Some more modern examples than Picasso: what about "The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker"? When they presented its looks back in 2001, I think, many fans were SHOCKED. Especially after a video one year before that demonstrated great looks. Did Nintendo care? No. They pulled it off and released it with that cel shading-look... to become one of the greatest games in the series.
Or the storyline of Avatar. In the end of season 2, which has worked on its character development for several episodes, building up undoubtful expectations that prince Zuko would finally turn good and team up with the protagonists, the authors did surprise the audience with the most unexpected move and let Zuko team up with the bad guys once again. Fans were screaming at their TVs when Zuko attacked the protagonists. Did the authors care? Did they do something wrong? No.

 

No, it's pedantry. This is a conversation, not a scholarly dissertation; casual, common-use language is perfectly acceptable and should only be subject to pedantry when a participant is confused and requests clarification.
If you can't handle that, well...you're going to be mighty cranky with my posts from here on in. And if you can't handle THAT, well...perhaps you'd better stop having this little chat.

Why make it at all, if not to be seen? And liked?
We're making films and a film is meant to be watched by people who aren't you; no matter how high-minded you may want to seem, this isn't art for its own sake we're making here, otherwise we probably wouldn't be here, on a Star Wars fan film board. We're making Star Wars FAN films...and that fan goes both ways: by fans and for fans.
If you're not making a fan film to show other people, a fan film you hope other people will end up enjoying, then yeah, make what you like more. But if there's even a tiny scrap of you that wants people to enjoy what you've made, you have to consider your audience.

And that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say that we're not making art for its own sake; that is a completely false comparison. An original painting made by someone who is making art just to make art is totally different from a fan making a film in the style of and in the universe of a work of fiction for other fans of that work of fiction to watch and enjoy. Totally different animals.

So they tried something innovative and it worked...big, fat, hairy deal. It could just as easily have flopped, big time. I can point to similar examples of changes made where the fans completely rebelled, 100%, and it killed the series.
For example, NOBODY liked Master of Orion 3 and nobody much cared for the third chapter of StarControl either. Both were radical departures from the original games in terms of style and gameplay; they tampered with the tried-and-true and fell flat on their faces. If they'd given the fans what they wanted--sequels which built upon the originals, that added more bells and whistles, games which could be described as "just like the original, only with MORE!"--those franchises probably wouldn't have died miserable deaths. But, alas, they didn't listen to their fan base...and they crashed and burned.

 

I wanted to respond to what you just said... but then, I discovered that my last post actually covered everything already:

 

ATTENTION THREAD

The following things are NOT the topic of this thread:

- the forum rules, whether good or bad
- the discussion style and word choices of our fellow poster
- how we might prefer things to proceed with regard to these issues

The following things ARE the topic of this thread:

- I dunno, lightsabers or something

Cool? Cool.


Rick McCallum loves you!

 

I have rediscovered the secret to the original appeal of the Star Wars franchise, by means of video games.

Well, a video game.

LEGO Star Wars II: The Original Trilogy

It has a wonderful balance of storyline, action, characterization and fun. Oh, and there's plenty of lightsaber action to keep me happy.

 

What did you spend it on if you dont mind me asking? and how far did you get with your film?

 

This is not necessary. Discuss the films, not the forumgoers.