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Amph "What I do is not up to you." - Wonder Woman 1984

Discussion in 'Community' started by The2ndQuest , Aug 5, 2016.

  1. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Gary Stu is the male version.
     
  2. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    Not sure, it's not something I've kept an eye on - the SW case I know of tend to be Mara Jade, but how warranted that charge is varies from story to story with the character quite a bit.
     
  3. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    I think this was an interesting criticism, about the ways in which the film was still endlessly deferential to men.

    Link
     
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  4. Sith_Sensei__Prime

    Sith_Sensei__Prime Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 22, 2000
    Diana does a fair amount of ballbusting in the film. One scene that comes to mind occurs when she calls the general, and IIRC, other leaders cowards for being in an office building hundred of miles away from the front line.

    The point Jenkins was making that strong female characters shouldn't be pigeonholed or be under any kind of preconceived ideals.

    I only learned of the "Mary Sue" term because that was the term that screen write Max Landis used to described Rey in The Force Awakens.
     
  5. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Gal Gadot's acting wasn't good enough, especially compare to Hamilton.
     
  6. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    The review cites a number of background quotes from Gadot and the screenwriters about how they were working hard not to make Wonder Woman seem threatening. That's what the parts I quoted link back to in the broader discussion.

    Even then, though, I don't think the example you cited really applies. It's mostly just based off a misunderstanding of modern warfare. It's also slightly anachronistic even for all that, as by the time of the Greek Golden Age leaders didn't commonly fight on the front lines and made fun of nations that kept up such practices. Regardless, though, it's odd that she's so privately outspoken ("we would call that slavery!") but doesn't engage in sustained or broader critique in support of what was by that time a very real, lively feminist movement.
     
  7. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2012
    I still think the story would have been better if it was set in a fictional background, not real event.

    WWI shouldn't have a superheroine to fight, a superheoine shouldn't be there either.
     
  8. grd4

    grd4 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2013
    JabbaWocky: Heller makes some salient points here and there, but her objection to Diana's "soft" nature is misguided. The filmmaker weren't cynically trying to mitigate backlash, they were staying true to the character. Wonder Woman is not at all a spiritual cousin of the rough n' tumble heroines of Underworld, Resident Evil and the Marvel flicks, but rather to Superman himself. Just as Christopher Reeve snatched cats out of trees and smiled widely at little girls, WW coos babies and delights in snowflakes. For those of us tired of CGI end-boss fights, those small bits were the ones that counted; if anything, I hope the sequel delves deeper into this facet of her character.
     
  9. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Correct. Wonder Woman looks at the world less like Sarah Connor or Ellen Ripley and more like this:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Really? The end fight of WW really sucks and had a lot of CGI instead of physical combat.
     
  11. SithSense

    SithSense Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2002

    Let's keep one thing in mind here: when James Cameron was attached to a big-budget superhero movie, he penned a draft of Spider-Man that featured Peter Parker going through a second puberty and included masturbation imagery for the scenes in which he learns to use his new organic web shooters, including a scene where Peter goes to a junkyard and leaves it "comically covered in web goo after a practice round".
    Also, Spidey and Mary Jane did the dirty on top of the Brooklyn Bridge after some web-bondage play.
    [​IMG]
     
  12. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    I think Cameron had some poor choice of words there (like the whole "step backwards" thing) to convey a valid observation from his perspective- that there is a history of strong female leads in film as well as behind the camera (of course, he's married and divorced half of them ;)) that didn't rely on conventional beauty standards, so playing up WW in that context could come across as overhyping that aspect.

    That said, I think his experience /above-average exposure to the subject made him focus on that instead of what the real point of the hype was (first superhero female lead film in a genre thats been severely lacking them, etc). But, really, I don't think he (or anyone else) can really say what a film means/represents to someone is valid or not. And I think by suggesting that it totally throws off what he was commenting on (even if he may have been commenting on the wrong thing to begin with).
     
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  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Usually with Mara it was when Zhan was writing her. But then that happened with all of his original characters.
     
  14. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    grd4: The criticism doesn't really have anything to do with Wonder Woman being positive or optimistic. The character could have been more forcefully assertive or vocally feminist while retaining these elements. I take your point that Wonder Woman, like Superman, performs a certain ideal. But the difference is that part of the ideals that Wonder Woman exemplifies are, more or less, conventional femininity.
     
  15. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 21, 2012
    To be fair, the character does pale if we compare her to Cameron's leading female characters. I am not sure is it Gadot's acting or the script's problem.
     
  16. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001


    Nobody has ever cared what you think though.
     
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  17. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    Lin Manuel's singing wasn't the best in Hamilton either...
     
  18. heels1785

    heels1785 Skywalker Saga + JCC Manager / Finally Won A Draft star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Dec 10, 2003
    Digital release tomorrow!
     
  19. grd4

    grd4 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 11, 2013
    slowpokeking: It's the nature of the films themselves. Aliens and The Terminator duo, centering on survivors who transcend their traumas by safeguarding their young, succeed because Cameron grounded his genre pieces as thoroughly as Spielberg did Jaws. Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley feel like authentically tormented human beings waging physical and spiritual battle in completely tangible arenas. Wonder Woman, though more competently made than most of its superhero brethren, is still just another power fantasy. The characters are endearing and emblematic, but not real; the core ethos and platitudes pleasant enough, but shallow (what the hell does it mean to fight for love?).

    I'm not sure whether Gadot has the chops to tackle anything on the level of Aliens/T2, but it would be nice if the sequel at least placed some emphasis on her role as diplomat or embattled peacemaker.
     
  20. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    Wonder Woman did have better origin story like the 2009 animated one.

    I think the thing is that they want to stop talking some very serious stuff or make some funny tries after MoS and BVS didn't win much praise. At least WW is a enjoyable blockbuster.
     
  21. grd4

    grd4 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Dec 11, 2013
    WW is a highly enjoyable blockbuster. I just happen to sympathize with Cameron, who made better films with fiercer, fully-realized heroines. (Diana's No Man's Land charge pales in comparison to Ripley's power-loader duel with the Queen, or Sarah's shotgun barrage against the T-1000 in the factory).
     
  22. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    At least it's better than some "dark, sooo realistic" tries like BVS. MoS would have gotten better reception if they put off those elements.

    WW also lacks good villain, I don't like how they had handled Ares and the cast was terrible.
     
  23. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    One meta level thing people need to take account is....

    Be that as it may for Ripley and Sarah to be iconic.....they still aren't their series iconic mascots. That's goes to the xenomorph and Arnold's T-800.

    But Gal (as Wonder Woman) is her own series brand "mascot."
     
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  24. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

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    May 5, 2016
    One meta level thing people need to take account is....

    Be that as it may for Ripley and Sarah to be iconic.....they still aren't their series iconic mascots. That goes to the xenomorph and Arnold's T-800.

    But Gal (as Wonder Woman) is her own series brand "mascot."
     
  25. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    I don't think it's a big point, otherwise Twilight has Bela as the mascot.

    Marilyn Monroe's movies were all about her as the mascot, but she plays the dumb blonde.
     
  26. cerealbox

    cerealbox Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 5, 2016
    But it relates to what you're saying. Wonder Woman and those two films, are different nature.

    Wonder Woman is a power fantasy of a woman going through the classic hero's journey.

    Strip the movies down to their bare bones and you'll find that Ripley and Sarah have more in common with "final girls" from horror films.

    While Wonder Woman has more in common with classic hero's journey narratives from Superman to Luke Skywalker to Rey.

    Each of those serves a different purpose.
     
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