PT What if Obi Wan didn't sneak on Padme's Ship?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Jun 11, 2013.

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  1. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    I don't think Anakin would have killed her outright. Even with Obi-Wan's appearance, he wasn't in such a rage that he killed her. I do think he might have attacked and held her captive. Whether Padmé would have been able to get through to him or eventually killed, though, is more up in the air.

    One problem they might encounter, though, with turning Anakin back is that if Padmé survived the birth, Anakin might attribute that to his turn to the Dark Side.
  2. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    However, one could interpret that Padme surviving the birth was never possible, unless Anakin's vision was a trick (which there is no reason to assume it was based on his visions prior to Episode 1 and during Episode 2 coming true). In the end, Padme was either going to die in childbirth, with Anakin accepting that fate, or he was going to try and stop it, be seduced by the dark side in the process and break her heart (something which would also kill her), or he was going to kill her outright for rejecting him. Padme's fate it seems was sealed, regardless.
    Last edited by d_arblay, Jun 12, 2013
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  3. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
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    That's true.

    But she may have survived -- always in motion the future is. I do think you might be right, though, and she was doomed to die regardless of what Anakin did.
  4. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    I think it's one of the beautiful aspects of the "forbidden love" arc. In a sense, what they do in AOTC costs both of them their lives, and in their hearts, they probably know it will regardless of the circumstances. I'm not sure there's any way to avoid it after that. In various examples, Lucas paints love as being something so devoid of rationality and so powerful it can literally destroy you. And to think some people ask "what's so great about the PT?!" :)
    Last edited by d_arblay, Jun 12, 2013
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  5. Jedi General Gelderd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2004
    star 5
    Hmm...good question.

    I really can't say - Anakin was getting pretty wound up with Padme before seeing Obi-Wan, that just tipped him over. Padme was also very adament about not following his path...

    So I feel either Anakin would have injured her or killed her trying to stop her or make her see sense before she may have tried to leave (hopefully he would have thought about his children more without Obi-Wan making him see total red in attacking her).

    If he did that and he crossed the line where he was in a clear head to have nearly killed his love, I think he would have blamed the Emperor for it rather than Obi-Wan and the way he had divided the Empire and Republic, so would have been out to destroy Palpatine just as much, with the Jedi soon following.

    Either way, I think he was on a downward slide to a grizzly confrontation with a force he felt had betrayed or hurt him and Padme's future...
  6. Sock and Awe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2013
    star 1
    I like this idea (is it from the ROTS novelization?). Then if Vader's line to Luke in ROTJ could be changed from "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" to "Your mother once thought as you do," [as someone else in the "Rejected Ideas" Saga thread suggested a while back] it would be even better! The line as it is always bothers me a bit because it doesn't seem to me that ROTS ever portrays Obi-Wan as really thinking that Anakin could be turned back away from the dark side (or at least none of Obi-Wan's Mustafar actions/lines directly toward Anakin/Vader himself, or even the dialogue between the two during their duel on ANH for that matter, seem to provide much of a basis for Vader saying that line later in ROTJ).

    I'm not sure he would've actually killed Padme even if Obi-Wan hadn't made that command (which btw I love as well--it's one of my very favorite moments in the PT). I sort of saw him as beginning to choke her out of momentary, blind, dark side-fueled rage, but I like to think that he would not have continued with the choking all the way to killing her even without Obi-Wan's command. And I don't see him as getting to even that level of blind rage (beginning to choke without necessarily killing) without the "trigger" of the unexpected appearance of Obi-Wan. But of course, it's all just speculation anyway.

    I agree with this to a point, but I think Obi-Wan's appearance was itself the "final straw" in the what Anakin saw as Padme's rejection of him. When he sees Obi-Wan, he immediately says "You brought him here to kill me" and, for Anakin, that "fact" (as he sees it) is the ultimate "evidence" of Padme's "betrayal"/"rejection" of him.
    Last edited by Sock and Awe, Jun 12, 2013
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  7. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    You shouldn't let it bother you. If you want it to be, it's easily rationalised by altering your interpretation of Vader's line. When he says "Obi Wan once thought as you do", rather than assume he's speaking about being turned from the dark side, it could be concerned with the line that follows - "you don't know the power of the dark side". Both Luke and Obi-Wan were not sympathetic to the influence Vader was under and it could be that which Vader is referring to.

    The only line that really bothers me in the whole saga with regards to consistency is "your Father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" which now has to be taken as a barefaced lie.
  8. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    No evidence implied it, Anakin never wanted to kill Padme, it was Obi Wan's appearance that let him lost his calm, thought Padme had betrayed him then choked her.
  9. Sock and Awe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2013
    star 1
    That's an interesting alternative way to look at it. I'm planning on watching the entire saga over again later this summer (only just now getting around to buying the blu-ray set!), so I'll have to think about that when I watch ROTJ and see if it "works" for me.

    Yes, this is definitely one that has bothered me--though it is possible to sort of fit it in under GL's intentions for Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" scene in ROTJ. We can see Obi in ANH as sort of thinking about how the Anakin he knew (pre-dark side turn) would have likely felt about his future son and using the lightsaber line to try to encourage Luke to join him in his mission to Alderaan, purposely telling him a "lie" for a greater/higher purpose.
  10. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    No, Anakin was always there, he made dramatic change he was still the same person. Obi Wan didn't see it and made the wrong call, if Luke followed his order, the galaxy would be doomed.
  11. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    Of course he would never have wanted to kill her... in a rational state of mind, that is. But he wasn't in one during that scene - talking about overthrowing the Emperor, ruling the galaxy and the paranoia itself that she was siding with Obi-Wan and not trying to help him. Padme's rejection of Anakin alone would have enraged him. Obi-Wan's appearance just accelerated his inevitable loss of control - and we know how that manifested itself. He sure as hell wouldn't have been able to watch her walk away. By that point he was possessive of her. I think it's safe to assume that If he couldn't be with her, he would have made damn sure nobody else could. When he chokes her, I don't think for a second he isn't thinking about killing her in that moment. What else was he trying to achieve? It's Obi-Wan's words that seem to, albeit briefly, snap him out of his rage. All open to interpretation though.
  12. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
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    He clearly was, beside in a little fear of Padme would betray him. Actually it was his only way to go. Padme was the one being unrealistic, saying they could go away. Obi Wan's appearance only ignited his fear and anger, made him lost his mind totally. He choked her because he thought she betrayed him by carrying Obi Wan here. If not for that he would not do it for sure. Even in that time, he didn't really kill her otherwise even Obi Wan would not be able to stop it.
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  13. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    Padme offered Anakin a way out of the mess he'd made for himself. She offered him forgiveness and a fresh start (despite not fully understanding her own probable fate). There was nothing unrealistic about it. It speaks volumes for her character and the qualities she would later (unknowingly) pass on to her son. To suggest that Anakin hadn't lost his mind prior to thinking Padme had sided with Obi-Wan is baffling. His actions in the latter half of ROTS are in no way rational, however much he might have disagreed at that time. He had, whether we like it or not, turned to the dark side - "fear, anger, aggression - the dark side of the force are they". He certainly wouldn't have taken Padme's rejection, after everything he felt he had done for her, lightly.
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  14. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    No that's just some nonsense. There is no way they could make it. Palpatine would not just let them go, he just needed to use Naboo's lives or just Padme's parents to threaten them and Padme would have to come out from hiding for sure. Anakin's only chance, is to overthrow Palpatine, in the novel he even gave a good way.

    He was fearing a little bit, but clearly didn't go out of sense. Even if Padme strongly refuses, he would just take her away, not kill her because he fall to the Dark Side to save her.
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  15. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
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    Anakin had the ability to destroy Palpatine so he was not bound to him (until that is, after the duel with Obi-Wan). Regardless, its perfectly reasonable to believe he could have, if that was the path he so chose, hide from the Empire. Obi-Wan and Yoda did so successfully. They also hid his children.

    Whether Padme outright rejects Anakin or sides with Obi-Wan, Anakin will ultimately still feel betrayed. And we know how he reacted to such a feeling. Perfectly reasonable speculation to suggest he would have killed her in rage.

    Anyway, there is no correct answer to this. Only a matter of intepretation. Ours differ. No point labouring over it. [face_peace]
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  16. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    Its a choice between destroying a Sith Lord or handing a girl over to a Sith Lord who would probably be choked by Anakin after a while as I can't see it being a very 'stable' marriage; her being a rebel and him being an Imperial.
  17. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    I thought the 'freak-hole' was caused by the fighting between the pair. It wasn't random.
  18. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    No, Anakin was farm from the destroy Palpatine unless his potential is developed, plus Palpatine had so many political and military support.

    Obi Wan and Yoda had nothing to worry about, but Padme has, there is no way she would let Naboo being destroyed and didn't show up.

    No, Padme never said she would side with Obi Wan, she clearly kept distance to prevent further enrage Anakin. She disagrees with Anakin does not mean she would bring someone to kill Anakin.
  19. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    Actually Obi Wan further pushed Anakin to the Dark Side, made him the monster Vader later, before that he still had love and regret for what he did.

    Anakin made clear he would overthrow Sidious.
  20. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Please use the edit function, instead of double posting, thanks.
  21. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    Only if he finds Anakin. He couldn't find Obi-Wan or Yoda remember (much to his later cost).

    So Obi-Wan and Yoda don't care at all about anyone who suffers at the hands of the Empire.... Are you serious?! You think that's why they went into hiding? As for Padme being obliged to hypothetically come out of hiding simply because Naboo would suffer if she didn't - Naboo, like everywhere else, was destined to suffer anyway. And whether Anakin stood by him or not, Palpatine had what he wanted by this point - Sith rule and the Jedi defeated. How much he would care about a remorseful Anakin's whereabouts is speculative. Even then, if Padme were in hiding with Anakin, it's doubtful to suggest she would even know about Naboo's fate and silly to speculate that Palpatine would, if unaware of her location, be able to make her aware.

    I never said she did. I was referring to Anakin's interpretation and assumption of what must have been the case when he saw Obi-Wan on the ship.
  22. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    He just needs to use Naboo to threaten them.

    No, they are Jedi, they could let things go without showing up, to them it's the greater good. That's why they let Luke to kill his own father. Padme is different, she even voted against Valorum because she thought he wasn't helpful.

    Of course there are many ways to let her know, in such a galaxy.

    So Anakin would not choke or kill her.[/quote]
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Jun 14, 2013
  23. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    Not to mention invading the temple to kill the younglings. That was really where the line was drawn, at least for Obi-wan and Yoda. Enough was enough there. However, Padme may have been in denial about this. I wonder what would have happened if Obi-wan showed her the recording of it. Maybe she would have never gone to Mustafar.

    Obi-wan not arriving would have definitely delayed the force-choke. But Padme and Anakin wanted two very different things.

    Padme wanted to go home and maybe give birth in a non-lava setting, and Anakin wanted to Rule The Galaxy (tm) and take out the emperor. I don't see how this couldn't have resulted in some kind of relationship disaster.
  24. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    That depends on where she goes and Palpatine knowing where she is. As I said, Naboo was destined to suffer anyway. And regardless, she made the offer to Anakin, so she clearly thought it was possible.

    You don't know that.

    I think she fully understands what has happened. She's in denial at first, obviously - "not Anakin" and "he said that you killed younglings?!". But even when she realises it is true, much like Luke, she is still willing to forgive him if he shows willingness to make things right. That's what love will do to rationality.
    Last edited by d_arblay, Jun 14, 2013
  25. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    This does not work at all.
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