PT What if Obi Wan didn't sneak on Padme's Ship?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Jun 11, 2013.

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  1. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    Yep. She definitely knows Obi-wan is telling the truth, and that Obi-wan went through his process to make up his mind that Anakin is not salvageable (Also Obi-wan loves Anakin too, but made the exact opposite decision as Padme, and from a certain point of view it's not rational decision either)

    But I don't think it registers for Padme the true extent of his evil until she directly confronts Anakin about it, speaks to him face to face.
    "He said- he told me you turned to the dark side, that you murdered Jedi . . . even younglings" Like she's trying to gauge his reaction to it.
  2. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah I think she wants to see a level of remorse such as the one she witnessed on Tatooine in AOTC. But even when she doesn't get one and realises he has changed, she is still pleading for him to "come back". She still has hope for him... even at the moment she dies.
  3. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    Obi-Wan wouldn't be much of a Jedi if he bowed down to the wishes of a Sith Lord, even if it meant that the Sith would be weakened.
  4. Slowpokeking Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    No, he later nearly drove Luke to the Dark Side by telling him to kill his father.
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  5. Pensivia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2013
    star 4
    Yes, I agree. This is actually something that bothers me a little about her dying from a lack of "will to live." In another thread, I have commented about how I see Padme's death as fitting into GL's interest in mythic/legendary elements ("dying of a broken heart" etc.). But as you point out, she does clearly have at least some hope until the very end ("There is...still good in him..".). So (for me), sometimes that aspect undercuts the whole "dying from a lack of will to live" idea. It seems like if she truly did believe there was still hope Anakin could really "come back," then she wouldn't have completely lost her will to live...? What do you think?
  6. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    You seem to assume that Obi-Wan would have been more responsible for Luke's conversion than Luke himself. Destroying the Sith was something of a moral obligation for the two remaining Jedi - Yoda and Obi-Wan - and so killing a Sith Lord is a good act. It is up to Luke to repel his own weaknesses, not Obi-Wan. And furthermore, in TESB, Obi-Wan advises Luke not to confront Vader but Luke's own greed resists his advice.
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  7. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    And if we work on your logic, then we'd have to say that every Jedi is corrupt and that Obi-Wan is just the average Jedi because if you are saying that if a Jedi orders another Jedi to kill a life form, then the Jedi commanding it is evil. On that logic, we'd have to say that every top Jedi alive during the Clone Wars is evil for commanding Clone troopers to kill or destroy Separatists. And furthermore, every Jedi throughout history must then be evil since many have had to order other Jedi to kill Sith Lords, Dark Jedi and other hostile forces. Clearly, such a notion is absurd. The Jedi, though they have their flaws, are clearly much more of a force for Good than the Sith. And I doubt that Obi-Wan wants the Sith to exist at all, but since they do, he must take action to topple them.
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  8. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
    If Obi-Wan wasn't on Padme's ship, then there probably was a chance that Padme would convince Anakin to come with her.
  9. d_arblay Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 4
    I suppose we can view dying of a broken heart and losing the will to live as two separate things. The film never explicitly states she has died of a broken heart, but that is certainly the underlying message. There isn't any inconsistency in having hope for Anakin but also dying of a broken heart, but I grant you, there is some confusion over losing the will to live while maintaining hope. But the head and the heart can be in conflict. What she ultimately says is "there is still good in him".. which isn't to say "I think he'll come back to me". She may, for whatever reason (not all entirely to do with Anakin), view their relationship as beyond repair... and that may be the thing that traumatises her most.
    Last edited by d_arblay, Jun 18, 2013
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  10. Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2012
    star 2
    No matter what, Padme was going to die anyways, the only thing Obi Wan did by boarding the ship was speed up Anakin's emotions, which made him choke Padme, and not to mention made Anakin crispy, which made him loose some of his Midiclorians so I've heard. Come to think of it, if Obi Wan didn't come and Anakin killed Padme, Luke and Leia might have died with her, and that would have changed every thing!
    d_arblay likes this.
  11. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 6
    In the novelization she was expecting him to say that Obi-Wan lied and of course that didn't happen. She was horrified when his only reaction was "Obi-Wan is alive?"
  12. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    If Ewan did not get on that ship he probably would have been fired by Lucas for not following his lead as Director. :p
    Last edited by Carbon1985, Jun 19, 2013
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  13. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    Plot demands are gonna plot-demand....
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 19, 2013
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  14. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    I'll also add that Obi-Wan's "thought process" that led to him thinking that Anakin was not 'salvageable' was partly (or greatly, if you will) based on ignorance - that is, his ignorance of some of the (bad) thing that were already done by Anakin (not 'Vader') even before Anakin had turned to the dark side.

    Imo, though, it's an ignorance of (plot) convenience, which again goes back to.....you guessed it. [face_not_talking] < "not buying it, George. Sorry."
    Last edited by TOSCHESTATION, Jun 19, 2013
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  15. Ambervikings91 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    then the movie wouldn't be as good
  16. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    Have you played the RotS game on PS2? There's an alternate ending where Anakin defeats Obi-Wan rather than being defeated. He goes on to kill Palpatine and names himself emperor of the galaxy.

    I know we're talking about if Obi-Wan had not shown up, but I feel that both outcomes would be the same. If Obi-Wan didn't sneak on to fight Anakin and damage his physical body, Vader would have been the most powerful Sith, seeing as he didn't have/need robotics, and he more-than-likely would have killed Palps to gain ultimate power. After that he would most likely kill the rest of the Jedi. That's just how I see it.

    It was not only Kenobi's choice to sneak onto Padme's ship and fight Anakin, it was vital.
  17. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Or she glimpses a deeper truth as she goes to her death through the Force. She retains enough strength to whisper this truth to Obi-Wan, though dies when she tries to put personal emphasis on it.

    The gross ignorance of Obi-Wan is part of the story, part of the sadness. He never really gets into Anakin's mind or even seems aware of -- or cares for -- why he lost his apprentice to Sidious in the first place. His understanding, at best, is skin deep.
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  18. Beautiful_Disaster Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2005
    star 4
    I certainly don't think Kenobi helped the situation when he snuck on to Padme's ship like he did.
    If he hadn't, who knows what could have happened. I do think if anyone could have gotten through to Anakin, it would have been Padme. She was the only one who had even tried until Luke. Watching his reaction when she begs him to run away with her to raise their child, there is that momentary look of uncertainty..like he's actually listening to her, so there was that chance that she could dissuade him, I think. People may not agree (which I'm certain some won't), but in my opinion, she might have been able to bring him back like Luke did in ROTJ.
  19. ConnorLovesPadme Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2013
    Bump.

    Anakin still would of chocked her for turning down joining him ruling the galaxy also Obi Wan made the situation heated because its obvious Anakin has a strong dislike towards Obi Wan which made Anakin even more angry but as stated before the outcome still would of been the same.
  20. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    I'm not quite sure if he still would have choked her. The reason he choked her was because he thought that she brought Kenobi with her to kill him, not because she wouldn't join him. I'm sure he would have done something out of hand, but I don't think it would have played out the same way just because she wouldn't join him.
    ConnorLovesPadme likes this.
  21. ConnorLovesPadme Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2013
    That's actually a very good point can't disagree with that but if you listen to the conversation Anakin asks Padme to join him and they will rule the galaxy and she wouldn't and asks him to come back that's when Obi Wan appears so yes you're right something will of gone out of hand.
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  22. TX-20 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2013
    star 3
    If Obi-Wan didn't sneak onto Padme's Ship?

    Padme would be still alive and starring in Real Housewives of Coruscant
    Dredalus likes this.
  23. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    Furthermore, if Obi-Wan hadn't embarked on that eerie journey to Mustafar then he obviously wouldn't have duelled Vader and so Vader wouldn't have received the damage that he did and so would have remained strong and at his peak just like the Emperor wanted. Therefore Vader may well have hunted down the remaining Jedi and traitors at a quicker rate and the Imperial forces that he would later oversee may not have feared him as much. All of these are really tiny, insignificant details, and there are many more. Thus, I don't think it would have made much of a difference if Obi-Wan hadn't sneaked on the ship. Padme could never have lived with Vader and I fear he would have killed her sooner or later, or perhaps she could have pretended to love him and then sneak off to Bail Organa and organise a rebellion, slightly stronger than the one we see in the films. Again, not a big difference.
  24. ConnorLovesPadme Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2013
    How do we know that Padme couldn't live with Vader? She apparently died of a broken heart because of him, she clearly loved him to death. I think she could of lived with him but I do agree with you in some sort on the whole organising a rebellion.
  25. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    In my opinion, I think she had a greater loyalty to the Republic than to Anakin. And if this is indeed the case thenthat do you think she'd even be at all loyal to a Republic that was transformed into an autocratic Empire with a tyrant at its head and Anakin as his right-hand man? (as Padme well knew that he was) On a further note, let's just suppose that she was more loyal to Anakin than to the Republic. Even if this were true, we can assume that it was a caring, fatherly, peaceful and understanding Anakin that she loved - a humane Anakin; not a forceful, cunning, malicious, robotic and downright evil Anakin as he proved himself to be on Mustafar. Okay, she just might have loved Anakin more than the Republic; but she certainly didn't love Darth Vader. He became a different person altogether. At their meeting together on Mustafar, Anakin never actually existed anymore. Obi-Wan testifies to this fact in the original trilogy when he states that Anakin was deceived by evil and so became Darth Vader. However, there is a flaw in my argument that may support your argument. It is this: Padme pleaded Anakin (at this point Vader) to go far away with her and continue their marriage and presumably live in peace; but Anakin dismisses this notion and insists they needn't keep it a secret anymore. Now, this could suggest that she had a greater love for Anakin than to the Republic. But, I'm not sure she really knew what she was saying at the time as she would of course have been in utter confusion and panic at the new personality of Anakin and the reports she'd heard of him 'killing younglings'. More importantly, even if Anakin (I only use this name for convenience sake now) had agreed to move away with her, I don't think the relationship would have lasted long! But I believe it would have been impossible for him to agree to her proposal to move away because his love for the Dark Side was now more powerful, devout and concentrated than his love for Padme. So, it kind of works both ways as we need to look at Anakin's (Vader's) new perception of Padme as well.
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