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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

What if Obi-Wan Kenobi was in Mace's place?

Discussion in 'Archive: Revenge of the Sith' started by wassssup, May 10, 2005.

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  1. COMMANDER76

    COMMANDER76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    You've answered your own complaint:-B

    We went into what Obi-Wan Kenobi would face in Mace Windu's place in the first couple of pages...then it became what you see before you...

    All threads follow a non linear line eventually...but I assure you that the main players have written their take on Kenobi at least 4 different ways by now...except farrellg:p

    EDIT: JAWASTEW IS DA MAN
    (who cooks jawas in his stew):D
     
  2. JawaStew

    JawaStew Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Hats / Hoods off Commander, likewise!

    You will need to teach me this, "Stabbing people's faces off".
    It sounds very handy. I will gladly share all my recipes.
     
  3. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Then perhaps a thread like this should rather be closed if no-one has any more to contribute to it?
     
  4. sithrules70

    sithrules70 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 28, 2005
    whats the point of closing all the threads ??

    the mods already closed officials and very interesting threads mace vs sids and yoda vs sids as an example

    and now that i remember the mods said something like the yoda vs sids thread was going to be re-opened once the movie was released...[face_whistling]
     
  5. COMMANDER76

    COMMANDER76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    I'll gladly share the secret to "stabbing a face off"[face_peace]

    Keep the recipes tho[face_sick]
     
  6. El Kabong

    El Kabong Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 28, 1999


    ONE mistake? You've got to be joking - Mace has a laundry list as long as my arm of mistakes and blunders. The biggest being that he marginlized Skywalker, playing right into Palpatine's hands. Mace dropped the ball in so many ways, its not even funny.

    You're all assuming that the scene would have played out the same if you just swap a blue lightsaber for the purple. Not so - Skywalker walking into the middle of the Windu/Palpatine fight, not seeing the first half, gave him the skewed point of view. If he had been there from the start, I dont think he would have been so quick to make a bad snap judgement.

    Kenobi wouldnt have given Skywalker the brushoff, telling him to chill in the council chambers till they got back. He would have listened to his concerns and most likely would have brought him along. Kenobi wouldnt have been dead because it wouldnt have gotten to the 1-on-1 fight stage.
     
  7. COMMANDER76

    COMMANDER76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005


    You argue that way and I'll say Mace proved that Anakin was NOT neccessary in the arrest party by overpowering and disarming Sidious on his own. That means that Anakin is solely to blame for everything because HE disobeyed orders....HE disarmed Mace when Mace was holding Sidious under a lightsaber blade beaten....not defenceless....but beaten. Anakin got Mace killed.....Anakin killed the younglings....Anakin murdered the Seperatists leaders....and Anakin tried to kill Kenobi after abusing his own wife.

    With failings like Anakin's.....do you honestly think Windu talking to him like a Soft Teddy Bear is going to make the difference?

    Assign some blame to Kenobi as well....he should have clued Mace in on the Padme/Anakin situation.
     
  8. DarthSeether

    DarthSeether Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    May 21, 2005
    What if Jules Winnfield was in Mace's place?

    Palps: "I must say you are here sooner than expected."
    Jules: "Well allow me to retort! What does Yoda look like?"
    Palps: "Excuse me?"
    Jules: "What planet you from Palps?"
    Palps: "Naboo, master jedi."
    Jules: "Naboo ain't no planet I've ever heard of! They speak galactic basic on Naboo?"
    Palps: "Of course they do....you've never heard of Naboo?"
    Jules: "GALACTIC BASIC **** DO YOU SPEAK IT?"
    Palps: "I AM Galactic Basic."
    Jules: "Then you understand what I'm saying! WHAT DOES YODA LOOK LIKE?"
    Palps: "He's green..."
    Jules: "and?"
    Palps: "He's little."
    Jules: "......AND?!"
    Palps: "...he's almost bald?"
    Jules: "Does he look like a Twi'lek slave girl?"
    Palps: "Excuse me?"
    Jules ignites his lightsaber.
    Jules: "Say 'Excuse me again'! Say 'Excuse me again'! I DARE ya. I DOUBLE-DARE ya ****
    Palps: "No, Yoda does not remotely look like a Twi'lek slave girl."
    Jules: "Then why'd you try to **** him like a Twi'lek slave girl Palps?"
    Palps: "I didn't, Master Jedi."
    Jules: "Yes you did! Yes you did. When you refused to give up those emergency powers you did."
    Palps: "You never actually ASKED me to give up my emergency powers."
    Jules: "There's this passage I've got memorized from the Jedi Archives, goes something like this - 'Fear is the path to the darkside. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate.....leads to SUFFERING!'"
    Palps: "Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?"

    Jules and the posse attack Palps and Palps kills them all in less than ten seconds.


     
  9. MathewVader

    MathewVader Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Hi everyone,

    Sorry if what I'm saying is a giant repetition of previous posts. I'm just getting up to speed on the topic. I think it's an interesting question, and would like to add my thoughts.

    I'm of the opinion that had OB1 been at the duel instead of Mace, the saga might have either ended, or gone in a completely different direction. Here's why I believe this -

    Sidious is trying to lure Anakin to the Dark Side of the Force. I think he realizes that in order for Anakin to be fully committed, Anakin needs make a final act of betrayal against the very institution he's been serving all these years. He must act against his whole way of life. He must betray the Jedi.

    Sidious already knows that Anakin can be prodded in this direction - after all, with a bit of goading, he was able to kill Dooku (an exercise in testing Anakin to begin with).

    But Sidious also knows, that because of the bond between Obi-Wan and Anakin (master/apprentice, father/son, brothers, friends, etc), this would never happen. Sidious knows that Obi-Wan is still very much his mentor, a voice of reason, perhaps even his conscience if you will. As long as Obi-Wan is there, Anakin will never fully turn to the Dark Side.

    I believe Sidious thought Dooku would kill Obi-Wan on the ship. I believe much of Anakin's power in that part of duel was drawn from anger and rage - the idea that he thought Dooku just killed Obi-Wan. I suspect Sidious wasn't too pleased that Obi-Wan survived (recall that he insisted to Anakin that he be left behind). Instead, Obi-Wan survived and Sidious had to resort to another plan.

    Getting Greivous to Utapu I think was to draw Obi-Wan away, thus separating him from Anakin. I believe he manipuated the Jedi Council into sending Obi-Wan for just such a purpose. He knew the Jedi Council in its arrogance would never send Anakin or any other Jedi. While doing this, he knew that by revealing himself to Anakin at this point - that Anakin's first instinct would be to call on the Jedi Council.

    Had the council done something completely at odds with its thinking and kept Obi-Wan in Corusant, I think Palpatine would have tried to find a way to get rid of him.

    So imagine, if instead of Windu, it was Kenobi there.

    One key difference between the two of them is that Kenobi is very much a defensive Jedi. It's part of Jedi code: Use the Force for Knowledge and Defense, never Attack. As such, Obi-Wan rarely kills any person who's unarmed, and is very very slow to anger to violence. I think is comes from the lesson Obi-Wan learned in TPM when dueling Maul. By tapping into the Dark Side after Qui-Gon fell, Obi-Wan found himself near defeat and death. Since that time, I believe Obi-Wan has mastered his ability to not let his emotions overcome him to produce lethal violence, except only to defend himself. In AOTC, when Zam almost blasted him, Obi-Wan could've easily cut her down. He didn't because he needed information from her. In ROTS, his goal was to take Greivous in, he only fired the final blaster shot in defense.

    Mace Windu - OTOH - isn't like that. We already know that he's capable of killing an unarmed person. He did so in AOTC - he sliced off Jango Fett's blaster, then decapitated him. Sidious probably knows that Windu, more than any other Jedi is prone to act with deadly against someone unarmed.

    I believe this is the reason why Palpatine is so happy to see the four Jedi that arrive. I think his dueling skills are such that he knows that he can easily handle the other 3, while fighting Mace. His goal is be defeated by Windu - to the point of being near death. This is for Anakin to view, so Anakin can finally make the final plunge by acting against a Jedi. I think when Anakin did arrive, Sidious realized that Mace wasn't in a state to kill him, yet. Mace had defeated him, and was about to arrest him, not kill him. THis is what leads Palaptine to use his force-lightening against Mace. The goal was to draw out Mace's violent tendency to kill, while at the same time show himself as defeated and unarmed - thus forcing A
     
  10. Talon_Kenobi

    Talon_Kenobi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 3, 2003
    Obi-wan is also the MASTER of his form and it is a defensive form at that. Even if Sidious is a better dueler than Obi-wan, a master of any form would not loose in 3 seconds. So the duel would probably have lasted just as long.

    Look at the Anakin vs Obi-wan duel. This is the most intense duel in the saga and Anakin is out right trying to kill him. Also this is Darth Vader Anakin, this is Anakin at his most powerful, using everything he knows in the force, but Obi-wan can match him and last 10 minutes and defeat him. It is all because of his patience.

    Then there is the thing about force lightening. We know Obi-wan knows how to block it and could probably block Sidious'. Some might say he isn't strong enough in the force, but why is Mace so much better in the force? Obi-wan Kenobi MATCHED the choosen one at the hight of his power, that is a no small feat.

    So really, I see no reason based on the fight that would cause Obi-wan to do sooo much worse as Mace did.



    Now to the question, if Obi-wan was there instead of Mace, Obi-wan would have brought Anakin there for two reasons:
    1.He trusts him
    2.He trust Qui-Gon

    He knows that Qui-Gon would want Anakin there and that only if Anakin was there would the prophecy be fulfilled.

    Plus if Anakin was there from the start Sidious would have to convince Anakin that Obi-wan was against him. Basically without any proof. Sidious couldn't have done that, no matter how good he is.

    There is another possibility, Sidious would not have revealed himself with Kenobi around then non of this would have happened
     
  11. Force-Keeper

    Force-Keeper Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Sure, Anakin is Obi-Wan's friend and he trusts him, but he also knows what's good for Anakin, as did Qui-Gon. That being not going with him to arrest Palpatine. I really don't think he would've took him if he was in Mace's shoes.

    Now, to the question of the thread:

    Obi-Wan going to arrest Palpatine would still have the same consequences as Mace going to arrest Palpatine. Obi-Wan going instead of Mace doesn't change what Anakin needs to accomplish, he still storms in the office with the same agenda, saving Palpatine so he can save Padmè. Some people think that Anakin would choose Obi-Wan over Padme, and that's not true. Anakin has love for Obi-Wan just as Obi-Wan has love for Anakin, but he has a stronger love for Padmè and power.
     
  12. COMMANDER76

    COMMANDER76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Exactly how I see it also
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Anakin would've still betrayed Mace if he watched the whole fight. In fact, that's how it originally went. Anakin saw the whole thing and still betrayed the Jedi. In Stover's book, Anakin arrives as the fight ends and sees the bodies of the Council members. He still betrays Mace.

    Obi-wan would be dead, because Anakin would attack and Palpatine would join in. Two-on-one, with Palpatine covering Anakin's recklessness.
     
  14. MasterKenobi777

    MasterKenobi777 Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2005
    I think the one thing being overlooked in this thread is that if Obi-Wan took Anakin with him(which is more likely based on their relationship)or not, Palpatine would have to attack both Obi-Wan and Anakin or talk his way out of that or he would face Kenobi and the other Jedi. While I'm sure Kenobi would lose, there is no point in arguing that because I'm sure Obi-Wan would have taken Anakin with him. Anyway had Obi-Wan had Palpatine down like Mace did and Anakin walks in, I believe Obi-Wan would have handled that differently. I don't think he would have been all gung-ho about killing Palpatine. He would have tried to arrest him. Obi-Wan is a completely different Jedi than Mace and taking out an unarmed person is something Obi-Wan would not do nor approve of, just look at how Palpatine made sure Obi-Wan was out of the picture so Anakin could kill Dooku, who was unarmed. In other words I think because of what kind of person and Jedi Obi-Wan is, it would have been alot harder for Anakin to make his decision because Palpatine's life would have not been in danger because Obi-Wan is not the kind of person to kill an unarmed man. Anyway Obi-Wan is the best person to talk to Anakin in a situation such as this, and this would have made the decision all the harder for Anakin. One last thing is that Palpatine did everything he could to make sure Obi-Wan is out of the way, either dead or off Coruscant. Only after Obi-Wan is gone, does he reveal himself to Anakin. Palpatine knew it would be too dangerous to let Kenobi be there when Anakin must make his decision so he does whatever he can to get him away and it works.
     
  15. mentaljedi

    mentaljedi Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2005
    I'm pretty sure i can guess what would happen if Mace had gone after GG IF the story would allow him. Quite simply, Anakin would run to Obi-wan just as he was about to go after sidious.
    Ani: Obi-wan!
    Obi: Anakin! I was just looking for you! I have great news! Master Windu has just defeated General Greivous. I was off to get you so that we can make sure he removes his eemergency powers.
    Ani: I don't think you'll be able to.
    (Obi-wan stops and looks at Anakin in a funny way)
    Obi: What do you mean? Anakin, what's wrong?
    Anakin: (TUrns away) It's Palpatine. I think... i think he's the Sith we've been looking for.
    Obi: Oh force Anakin. I'm so sorry. Anakin, i'm not going to be able to kill sidious alone.
    Anakin: No you can't!
    Obi: (Seriously) Anakin. What has he got over you?
    (Anakin tries to hide his thoughts but Obi1 catches them. Anakin looks at Obi-1 in horror not knowiing what he'll do but obi1 just rests his hand on his shoulder)
    Anakin: Master?
    Obi: Anakin. I promise, when this is over i'll do everything in my power to save Padme. But i can't if Sidious destroys the Jedi. Please Anakin, see through the lies he's made. Deception is the way of the Sith, surely you can see this. Your the Chosen One, it is your destiny to bring balance to the force.
    Anakin: But...Padme...
    Obi: Do you honestly think Sidious cares about her? He's jsut saying this to get you on his side. Anakin, what would Padme do if she were in your situation?
    Anakin: (Pause) She would do her duty.
    Obi: That's right. Now lets go. We'll take him together.
    Anakin: (Smiles) Your never going to let that go, are you?
    Obi: Never!

    Obi-1 and Anakin, along with a couple more Jedi go to arrest Sidious. Anakin still isn't sure but once Sidious starts to attack, which he would beacause he would be angry that Obi-wan didn't go after GG, Anakin would realise that this isn't the same man he befirended but an evil Sith! Anakin would see Obi-wan get knocked to the ground and hit by lightning. Just as Sidious is about to kill Obi-wan, Anakin blocks the lightning and throws it back at him. The two fight and then wrestle each other. Anakin gets knocked out of the windown but Obi-wan grabs his hand. Sidious then hits Obi-wan with lightning sending him down to his doom just as Anakin pulls on his hand, jumps back into the room and kills Sidious. Both Obi-wan and Sidious die and prehaps, for all the people who don't like mace, Mace loses his arm whilst fighting GG.

    That's what I think would happen! [face_peace]
     
  16. poe077

    poe077 Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    frankly, i think if obi-wan were in the position, he would have contacted yoda and not just rushed into things. palpatine was expecting the jedi. he was luring them into a trap of his own design.

    how can you argue points taken from a book (the novelization) by bringing up points found in another book (the making of...)?
    i can argue that the making of... is just a book and since its not in the movie... etc.
    how is one book more valid or invalid then the other?
    just curious.
     
  17. El Kabong

    El Kabong Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 28, 1999
    Well, if you believe that Mace beat Sid, instead of Sid playing the dangerous game of letting him look like he got the upper hand. But that's a conversation for a whole 'nother thread. . . .

    Well, at THAT point, no - nothing Mace could have said or done would have changed Skywalkers mind. But that was because of the very long history of the piss poor treatment at the hands of the order. They've mishandled him from day one - they never listened to him, gave him bad advice, and wrongly mistrusted him - so it's no real shocker when it bites them on the ass.

    If he figured it out by that point. It's pretty clear that he didnt figure it out until he goes to Padme to find out where Skywalker has gone.

    Was Obi-wan perfect? No - but he would have done a damn sight better than benching their star player when it's the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs. Prophecy aside, it was clear that the kid needed to be there in one capacity or another, and Kenobi would have clued in on that.
     
  18. MasterJayofHeaven4c

    MasterJayofHeaven4c Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    This was before Anakin devoted himself to Palpatine's evil, so the choice between Kenobi and Palpatine would have been difficult for him. While Obi-Wan is "by the book", as they say, I think he would easily rather Anakin be married to Padme than turn to the Dark Side, so while Palpatine is screaming "I can save the one's you love!" Obi-Wan would be saying, "I want to help you Anakin!" "Your like my brother, Anakin!" "We'll help you protect her!" Stuff like that. In the end, I think the two heroes would ignite thier sabers to Palpatine, Palpatine would pull out his spare lightsaber, and they would have a monumental duel.
     
  19. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 8, 2005
    This is good stuff people, finally=D=

    OBW would have to do things differently. Most likely he would bring Anakin, but he would also contact Yoda. Anakin would listen to both Yoda and OBW. I think Anakin trusted Yoda more. Since either Mace or Yoda would be on Coruscant, they would bring the one present. Anakin, OBW and Mace/Yoda against Sideous - I think Sideous would just have to give up - or would die trying. Would be kinda cool fight though, or not?
     
  20. JawaStew

    JawaStew Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    I would disagree on several points here:

    1) There's not a lot of evidence that Anakin trusted Yoda, except that the person he trusted least was probably Mace, given their contentious relationship, if you could call it that. So far as I saw it, Anakin trusted five people, to varying degrees: Shmi, Palpatine, Padme, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan... in that order.

    2) I doubt Sidious would have 'died trying'. He's a manipulator - had he thought it was death or capture, I think he would have accepted capture, knowing that he commanded powerful people all throughout the Republic's legal, political, economic and military infrastructure. He would have still tried to scheme his way out, because at root, he's an egocentric sociopathic coward.
     
  21. r8hitman

    r8hitman Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 30, 2004
    Good point.

    The ONLY person (as far as force users go) that could have gotten through to Anakin at this point was Qui-Gon Jinn.

    He's really the only "father figure" that Anakin knows. Yeah he claims that Obi is like a father to him, but there relationship is more of a big brother little brother type of relationship....with Qui-Gon being the father figure for both.
     
  22. JawaStew

    JawaStew Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Exactly what I'm thinking R8.

    Palpatine becomes his surrogate father after Qui-Gon's death, and though he trusts Obi-Wan he knows his powers are superior. Big brother is what I was thinking for Obi-Wan as well.

    For his mother he had of course nothing but trust... Padme he trusts, but we see that his trust in her, in the end, is shaken.
     
  23. sithrules70

    sithrules70 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 28, 2005
    i see it this way.

    - if he chooses confrontation then his dead mutilated body would be next to kit fisto's
    - if he takes anakin with him i think anakin would still choose padme over him
     
  24. Fat_Bird

    Fat_Bird Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 1, 2005
    Oh for goodness sakes, Anakin knew Qui-Gon all of a nano-second. No way would he have had more influence than Obi-Wan. Why people act as if Qui-Gon was so important and would have done such a better job than Obi-Wan is beyond me.
     
  25. Force-Keeper

    Force-Keeper Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Anakin might?ve not known Qui-Gon for long time, but he did know that Qui-Gon was the only one who had faith in him from the get-go. Qui-Gon was someone who he could truly trust and listen to. After his death, Palpatine sort of becomes that.
     
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