What if Obi-Wan Kenobi was in Mace's place?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by wassssup, May 10, 2005.

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  1. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i agree.in fact i think that palpatine and unsuited vader aside,dooku was the best villain i saw in the movies,way better than maul,grievous and OT vader.
  2. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Yet isn't it ironic Dooku is the least of the major villians Obi-Wan has confronted and beaten?

    What makes you think Dooku is the least of the villains Obi-Wan has fought? I thought he was superior to Darth Maul.



    Hmmmmm I say that because clearly Vader is the greatest of the Sith apprentices.

    I suppose realistically Maul and DOoku would be two halves of Vader.
    With Dooku you get the superior Force ability, with Maul the superior saber ability and physical power. With Lord vader you get the best of the two, both awesome Force power and awesome Physical/Saber ability.
    We never saw Maul utilize the Force to any real extent, the circumstances of the fight with Jinn and Kenobi didn't really necessitate it apparently.
    But a common fallacy I see is that just because a character didn't do something on screen, doesn't mean he is incapable of doing it. Situational context is important.
    Maul was enjoying the physicality of his battle against Jinn and Kenobi. I think it's pretty darn safe to say Maul could use Force Lightning, he was Sidious' apprentice far longer than Dooku. Maul was an apprentice from birth evidently.

    So you can argue that I guess that Dooku was greater in Force skill than Maul, but then again, that doesn't even hold up, because Vader was clearly greater in Force power, and tried to Force throw Obi-Wan, but Obi-Wan finally learned "Hey! Sith Lords use Force throws and I'm vulnerable to them!" and he blocked it. Vaders Force throw should have thrown Obi-Wan across the room. But he blocked it. How did he block it only being a level 8 while Vader is a 9 in power?
    It's simple, the levels and rankings don't mean much, and Obi-Wan was powerful enough to block it and cause a stalemate.
  3. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4




    let me see.[face_thinking] one one hand i have a pathetic mechanical handicap(vader) and on the other i have one of the top lightsaber fighters(dooku) who can use lightning taht we know is lethal to vader.i think its not so unrealistic to say that dooku was better than OT vader





    OT vader twice as strong as a fighter as dooku and maul ??!? i would be surprised if he was even equal.





    vader foce powers were pathetic.all he did was choke a few officers and throw some boxes around.same for his saber skills.he was beaten by 4 years trained luke for god's sake !!






    the rankings are for the saber skills,not for the powers in the force.
  4. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    I'm referring to unsuited ROTS Vader pre-Obi-Wan spankage. :p
  5. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    sorry for the mistake joshua but i think farrellg was refering to OT vader.
  6. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Somewhere there is a Lucas qoute floating around that essentially says after Obi-Wan layed the smack down on ROTS Vader, he reduced in power to become like the other two apprentices, that Vader, Maul, and Dooku are essentially the same.

    Maybe Lord Sinister can find that relevant qoute, I know I've read it somewhere I just can't recall where.
  7. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i dont have it accurate but its like this

    " the emperor is not happy of ending with another count dooku or darth maul"
  8. Sosanya Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2005
    star 1
    Obi Wan would have been dead if he was in Mace's place. The emperor would have not played around with Obi the way he played with Mace (and yes, the Emperor was playing around with Mace not really fighting him) because the choice would have been more difficult and Obi Wan probably could have convinced Anakin not to make a bad decision. Maybe he would have killed Obi-Wan and 2 of the other Master Jedi's and played around with one of the less influential ones until Anakin showed up so it could play out the exact same way it played out with Mace.

    The only problem is, I'm not sure he could have taken out Obi Wan so quickly as to manage all of that but then again, that's why he made sure Obi Wan wasn't there at all right?
  9. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Obi-Wan wouldn't underestimate Sidious the way Mace and company did, because of Obi-Wan's prior experience with Sith Lords. As soon as Palpatine opened his mouth to start talking that Sith trash talk the fight would have been on, unlike Mace and crew standing there listening to it and giving Sidious momentum and oppurtunity to set the pace himself.
    I think they were undecided, and uncertain exactly WHAT to do. Kill him? Arrest him? Stand there and philosophize and debate with him?

    Obi-Wan would have pounced.
  10. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    With Dooku you get the superior Force ability, with Maul the superior saber ability and physical power.

    What makes you think Maul was a better swordsman than Dooku? Did Maul look faster?

    I don't think Maul could use lightning. If he could, the point when Obi-Wan was dangling over the pit would be an ideal time. He must not have learned the power yet.
  11. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah Darth Maul looked faster than Dooku...Dooku seemed more "fluid" in his movements though.
    Man to Man I see Maul beating Dooku after a very competitive fight if it takes place around the time of AOTC....I see Maul owning Dooku during the time of ROTS and I see Dooku barely beating Maul during the time of TPM.
  12. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    well, yeah, Maul looked to me about 3 times as fast as Dooku. And unsuited Vader even faster.
  13. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah Hayden looked awesome in "the duel"....he looked like he would have beaten Maul even if Maul survived to ROTS.

    Yet he couldn't take out Kenobi...

    Kenobi is better than he knows...
  14. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Darth Vader's assault was vicious and brutal, he was unleashing a lifetime of anguish and pain and frustration on Obi-Wan, taking everything out on him. It was really the worst beat down of any of the 6 films when you watch it repeatedly. He was gangbusters and a berserker.
    My point has always simply been Obi-Wan weathered that harsh s***. Like a champion. Vader was all over him like stink on s***. And Obi-Wan regulated that ferocity.
    Lesser men, myself included, would have fled in terror and ran as fast as humanly possible AWAY from that juggernaut of power.
  15. lordvicious Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 2
    Hmm. He didn't exactly leap at Dooku in round two nor did he outright leap at GG in their fight. That is not in his nature. He is more cautious, and that works better for him. I think Obi Wan would fare better than the posse, but I don't think he would have done anything markedly different as far as his entrance into the office.
  16. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    I can accept that LordVicious. Obi-Wan is indeed far more cautious than most. There is however a vast difference between caution and sheer unadulterated complacency.
    The Posse and Windu didn't even have their sabers fired up when they entered Palpatines office, and Mace was informed THE Sith Master was Palps. The Dark Lord they had been looking for the entire time. And they just waltz and mosey on in there like it's business as usual, and even pause to give Palpatine time to talk his Sith business. Granted there is an honor code evidently among even enemies in Star Wars and they talk their trash talk for a few before commencing with the fights, but still, the posse given what they knew was wreckless and asking for it. With everything Obi-Wan would have reported to Mace about Maul, Dooku, etc, Mace should have known their MASTER would be infinately worse. Granted, Mace seemed ready and adopted a defensive posture, but the posse was borderline retarded. As soon as Palpatine screamed like a banshee and jumped TOWARDS them, they should have dispersed and adopted a defensive posture JUST like Mace did. Palpatine even PAUSED and telegraphed his first attack. And there you have the first two morons admiring the scenery and Agen Kolar looking off into space, no doubt thinking about dinner. It was atrocious strategy on their part.
    Obi-Wan wouldn't have tolerated that.
  17. lordvicious Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 2
    Agreed on the ineptitude of the posse. Unfortunately that probably has more to do with what is being discussed in the choreography of the fight than anything else. I think GL truly meant to show that Sidious was more than they could handle, but it came off as Sidious versus a posse that just got out of bed. Mace certainly didn't help too much at that point either other than covering his own @#$. Where was he when Kit was getting sliced in half. Sidious had his back to him at that point.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

  19. MacetheCouncillor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3
    No, the ranking system can not be equated with EU. It is set up by the stunt coordinator of the movie itself, who has probably discussed how skilled each combatant is with Lucas. EU is just the beliefs of an author about how good each combatant is. It is little more than commercial fan fiction for all the relevance it has for the movies.

    I never put Dooku on a 7. In fact, I would guess he would be a strong 8 or a weak 9. AotC Obi-Wan is a 7, according to Gillard. And Dooku never beat RotS Obi-Wan with a saber, just with the Force (just a side note).

    That is a question for the makers of the movie, but I suspect the answer is something like this. Two grown up men who are equals are going into a brawl. One of them comes alone while the other (for some reason) brings along three eight year old kids. Ask yourself, would the latter have enough of an advantage of numbers to overwhelm the other grown up man before his ally kids got taken out.

    Not necessarily. As jedi_ethan pointed out, the lesser combatants would be in each other's way, meaning less room for manuevering. And Anakin did do better against Dooku than Anakin and Obi-Wan combined.

    Battle Droid Jedi. I doubt it. Mace's style is economic, and he is not wasting any energy on extra flips, but he is effective.

    Maybe to you. It is disproven by Lucas nontheless.

    Actually, I doubt he had a chance to kill Windu there. He was already fully extended. And with that logic, Saesee Tiin passed on a chance to kill Palpatine, too. But you Windu-hating types aren't looking for that, are you? It is either a mistake in choreography or a trap set up by Windu (intending to take Palpy's arm off when he tried to take advantage of the "opening") that Palpy didn't buy.

    Do not presume to speak for the "common viewer"!

    Then you are a "I want Windu to be a wimp" type.

    Why? Because Windu has been set up to be on par with Yoda. Anyway, Lucas' opinions trump yours any day.
  20. claytonian Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2005
    Well, Mace didn't exactly hold his own, his victory was all illusion
  21. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4


    wow !!! thanks sinister [face_dancing] i've been looking for this quote for a very long time
  22. lordvicious Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 2

    Actually, I doubt he had a chance to kill Windu there. He was already fully extended. And with that logic, Saesee Tiin passed on a chance to kill Palpatine, too. But you Windu-hating types aren't looking for that, are you? It is either a mistake in choreography or a trap set up by Windu (intending to take Palpy's arm off when he tried to take advantage of the "opening") that Palpy didn't buy.yep, a guy who can leap twelve feet across a room has his blade extended to within an inch of Windu's chest who is wide open both arms out to the side from his "swing for the fence", and he couldn't kill him. The scene with Saesee is clearly supposed to be in a sort of slow mo...almost like reading a comic book. It was not filmed well, but Sidious stabs Agen and Saesee begins to wind up. Sidious pulls his saber out and reverses it on Saesee before he can finish the movement.

    Do not presume to speak for the "common viewer"!I can certainly represent my experiences going to the movie in the theater ten times and hearing quotes like "why didn't Sidious kill him there?" I heard it time and time again. I went with relatives and friends who saw the same thing and would be yes voters.

    Then you are a "I want Windu to be a wimp" type.
    Nope. I just don't think he should have been at Palps level. If Palps clearly faked his loss to him, there would be no damage done to the Mace character because he really doesn't matter in the end for the saga. He is a pretty minor character.

    Why? Because Windu has been set up to be on par with Yoda. Anyway, Lucas' opinions trump yours any day.[/quote]GL's opinions change weekly. He made the movie, but I don't think he always makes good decisions and this one was not a good one IMHO.


  23. Hypernova Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 2
    One of the worst choices GL made was not to show us the Temple massacre.

    Damn it!

    We waited all that time to see Vader get medi-evil on the Jedi and all we got was clone troopers gunning down a kid and Vader walking into a room full of kids and igniting his saber.

    I wanted to see him drop Cin Drallig and that Padawan Whie.

    *Sigh*

    Mr Lucas you do work in mysterious ways.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    We did see the death of Cin Dralig, Whie and Bene on the holocam.

    BTW, let's keep it clean in here. We don't need comments like "You Mace Windu hating people".
  25. Ki-Adi-Tuesday Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2005
    He would have died...like Yoda told him he would.

    In the book you will see that the council members wanted to wait
    for Yoda to return before confronting Sidious. Mace Windu wanted
    to act then...bad move.
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