What if Obi-Wan Kenobi was in Mace's place?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by wassssup, May 10, 2005.

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  1. MacetheCouncillor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3
    Welcome to the squad of people who think their opinions outweigh Lucas', claytonian!
  2. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    even as a sidious suporter i think that there must be something in the air..[face_thinking]
  3. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Sidious isn't an unstoppable God. His skills are only marginally superior to the hard hitters in the series. He was hyped up by everyone because we haven't seen him fight before, what did people expect Gillard and crew to say? "Yeah, he's ok?"

    Sidious' true strengths and talents AREN'T Force lightning and saber fighting, but his shrewd machinations and plotting.

    Mace's "posse" isn't exactly the best indicator of Sidious' power or abilities, they were clearly incompetent and unprepared, not to mention having zero experience fighting Sith Lords. They were undoubtedly expecting a Jedi-like training scenario. Wrong. And their performance shows it.

    At least in the novel Stover TRIED to give some sort of rationalization for their extreme incompetence, almost implying that Sidious used the Force somehow to confuse/disarm mentally the posse before he attacked.
    No such dice in the film, you have Mace Windu and the 3 live crew waltz in like Happy Days and put up appearances only.

    Agen Gump and Saesee Rain-Man have to be THE worst representatives of the Jedi Order I've ever seen in my life. At least the chick looked like she was TRYING to fight Anakin in the hologram.

    I was far more impressed with Sidious' performance against Yoda than that lame joke excuse for a battle with the posse. I didn't know Padawans could be so old. These guys made 9 year old Anakin "Yippie" Skywalker look talented.

    Rob Coleman was right, Mace brought the B-team. It's ironic Sidious waited until all of the heavy hitters like Ki-Adi-Mundi, Plo Koon, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Yoda were off world. If he REALLY wanted to demonstrate himself to be a badazz, he would have waited until Yoda, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Ki-Adi Mundi, and Plo Koon came walking through the door. NOT Mace Windu and 3 sleepyheads.


    EDIT: As to these guys being "the greatest saber fighters the Order has ever produced" what a damn joke, no WONDER the Jedi Order fell. If these guys were the best why was the council always sending Obi-Wan Kenobi on the make or break missions with the fate of the WHOLE galaxy at stake? No doubt they had Fisto cleaning the fish tanks and Agen Kolar and Saesee Tinn shining COuncil seats with their azz.
  4. mentaljedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2005
    My personal opinion is that Yoda lost agaisnt Sidious only because he is small. Sidious lost agaisnt Windu because he isn't that good at using a lightsaber, and if you noticed a smile on Sidious face just before he is unarmed signalling he knows Anakin is here and then goes all "The JEdi are taking OVER!!!" routine. Obi-wan would hold out against Sidious but only if Sidious didn't use the force on him like Dooku did at the beginning of ROTS. Though the Force is a great ally of Obi-wan, it seems to be used against him a lot.
  5. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Sidious' true strengths and talents AREN'T Force lightning and saber fighting, but his shrewd machinations and plotting.

    Mace's "posse" isn't exactly the best indicator of Sidious' power or abilities, they were clearly incompetent and unprepared, not to mention having zero experience fighting Sith Lords. They were undoubtedly expecting a Jedi-like training scenario. Wrong. And their performance shows it.


    I think force lightning is the Emperor's greatest talent. It looks much more impressive onscreen than manipulations do. If all he did was manipulate people but didn't have dark side powers, he'd never be able to dominate anyone with lightning.

    Mace's posse are the best indication of the Emperor's lightsaber skills. Since the OS and novel (line edited by Lucas) acknowledge them as three of the greatest swordsmen the Jedi Order ever produced, the vast majority of Jedi would be below their level. This means that the Emperor could easily kill any of the hundreds of Jedi in lightsaber combat, with the exception of Mace, Yoda, and possibly Anakin. Lucas refuted the idea of Mace's posse being a B-team by replying "you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" when someone mentioned that. This means the posse wasn't that bad, the Emperor is simply that good.

    When there's only three people who are even at the Emperor's saber level and everyone else will get killed in seconds, that's extremely impressive. Its amazing that the Emperor could fight four Jedi Masters at the same time and kill three of them in seconds even when he's so outnumbered.

    Lucas said you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor. Yoda told Obi-Wan he isn't strong enough to fight the Emperor. McDiarmid said that his character is "much more powerful than Obi-Wan. This means Obi-Wan doesn't even have a chance at winning and will simply be electrocuted to death the way Luke almost was.
  6. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    some extreme emperor-favoring thoughts aside i think that you have the essence of the question right.obi wan could not subdue the emperor in combat,is that simple really..
  7. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    If you are going to use the novel as a source to illustrate your point, then you have to be fair about it and also provide the other half. Such as:

    Kit Fisto wishing Yoda, or Obi-Wan was with them going to confront Sidious.

    Mace Windu telling Obi-Wan straight to his face that Obi-Wan is GREATER then he is. No ambiguity or complexity. He said in two sentences concisely "hey pal, you alone can beat grievous, not yoda, not me, not anyone, only you. And hey dude, vapaad is cool and all but, you are THE Master of Soresu, which makes you greater than me, because Soresu is ALL defense babe." To paraphrase the gist.


    If using the book in the debate....that changes things then.


    EDIT: I think it's pretty clear from the Book and film, Yoda and Mace were grooming Obi-Wan as a replacement for either or both of them, including him in their little private circle, giving him the big assignments, etc etc. Obi-Wan in ROTS is about where Mace was in TPM.
  8. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    I must say that I now feel that Kenobi would perform as well as Mace Windu or possibly better in this situation.

    1. Obi-Wan Kenobi has the most experience facing Sith Lords of ANYONE on the entire council...therefor its safe to say that Kenobi would be the "ideal" coach to lead Kit Fisto and the gang into Palpatine's office.

    2. Only Kenobi has even the slightest chance of realizing Padme's importance to Anakin soon enough to keep his hands/head.

    3. It would create a real deep intense love triangle with Sidious and Kenobi vying for Anakin's loyalties....with both Men holding 13+ years of close father-like influence.
  9. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    please dont bring "vaapad" and "soresu" into one of the few good discussions that we have left :_|:_|:_|:_|:_|
  10. Darth_Sidious- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2005
    star 2
    I wonder if he would have chopped off Obi Wan's arm[face_thinking]
  11. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Speak of the devil! Well, shouldn't you know of all people Uncle Palps???
  12. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    I must say that I now feel that Kenobi would perform as well as Mace Windu or possibly better in this situation.

    Lucas says "you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor." Obi-Wan is an 8, while the Emperor and Mace are a 9. I don't see how Obi-Wan could possibly do as well as Mace, especially when he gets defeated so easily by Palpatine's apprentice. Lucas obviously considers Obi-Wan to be at a much lower power level than Mace and the Emperor.
  13. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    And that would be all fine and nice and acceptable as written law. If he DIDNT show in the very same film a level 8 Obi-Wan stand toe to toe with a Level 9 Chosen One. Hence the dilemma.
  14. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    I know that much...but Star Wars is about more than lightsaber levels...

    We did see a padawan Kenobi defeat a vastly more powerful Sith Lord in Darth Maul...so that sets a precident that the impossible to concieve can happen....kinda like a small one maned fighter firing a proton torpedo into a reactor shaft opening approximately 2 meters wide at full attack speed....
  15. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    I know that much...but Star Wars is about more than lightsaber levels...

    We did see a padawan Kenobi defeat a vastly more powerful Sith Lord in Darth Maul...so that sets a precident that the impossible to concieve can happen....kinda like a small one maned fighter firing a proton torpedo into a reactor shaft opening approximately 2 meters wide at full attack speed....


    But Lucas, Gillard, McDiarmid, and Yoda have all made it clear that Obi-Wan doesn't stand a chance against the Emperor. He was able to beat Anakin through superior experience and intelligence, but would have no such advantae over the Emperor. The Emperor could beat him even more easily than Dooku did. Obi-Wan cannot match the Emperor in force powers or saber skills, and the Emperor is going to do something foolish ala Maul or Anakin, so I don't see what advantage Obi-Wan could possibly gain against such a superior opponent.

  16. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4

    its not 100% "impossible" for obi wan to win but hugely unlikely.

    it would be the biggest upset in the history of SW.

    it would be like the atlanta hawks actually making the playoffs this year and sweeping the san antonio spurs 4-0 in the NBA finals,its not impossible but infinitely unlikely.
  17. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    It's not a dilemma. Why do people insist upon simplifying the battles of SW down to numbers and who beat who? Each duel has it's own specific set of circumstances that influence the outcome of the battle.

    As I've said numerous times, one of the things that Obi-Wan does incredibly well is listen to the living force; therefore, he is able to survive in many instances when he "shouldn't" (Force pull on Grievous' blaster, force pull on Qui-Gon's saber, sensing Zam behind him in the outlander club, etc...) I think this is precisely what he means when he says "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck"

    Yes. This is exactly it.
  18. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    Oh I agree Master SR70...I'm just stating that its not impossible, however I do feel that Kenobi has greater odds than the Hawks:p
  19. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4


    i agree it was a huge exaggeration :D lets say boston celtics ?? orlando magic ?? toronto raptors maybe ?? [face_thinking]
  20. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Oh I agree Master SR70...I'm just stating that its not impossible, however I do feel that Kenobi has greater odds than the Hawks

    Since there's such a huge power difference between the characters, I don't see how Obi-Wan could ever defeat the Emperor. Didn't you previously say that Obi-Wan is no match for the Emperor because Lucas puts him at a much lower power level than the Emperor, Yoda, and Mace? Did something happen to make you think the Emperor is easier to beat, or that Obi-Wan could challenge him?
  21. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    "I think I fight at twice the speed of light, if not sound."- Ian McDiarmid

    Does anyone know whether McDiarmid was being extremely clever or extremely stupid with this quote?
  22. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    maybe he used one of those things ...how do they call them ?? hyperbole i think...[face_thinking]
  23. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    The scene was not set up for Palpatine to kill Mace, it was set up for Anakin to get invovled in a situation where he has to make a split second decision, the Jedi or Palpatine (Padme)... and that is regardless of whomever was beating whom. If Obi-Wan replaced Mace, it would still be the same. Though Obi-Wan may not possess the same level of base saber skill as Mace, he still has a far greater advantage because he's brothers with Anakin. His wisdom, even his very presence, could have given Anakin enough hesistation to not make that split second decision. Perhaps that only would postpone the inevitable, or Palpatine would have killed Kenobi anyway, or perhaps Anakin would have realized just how bad Palpatine was and helped Obi-Wan kill or take him into custody. Who's to say. But this is one of those situations where combat skills take a backseat to what is more important. In this case, if Anakin had the emotional/mental support of Obi-Wan, things could have turned out differently.
  24. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    If you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
    If it's not impossible for Obi-Wan to defeat Darth Sidious, then regardless of how improbable it is, the truth being, Obi-Wan Kenobi can challenge Darth Sidious.


    Why and how?

    It's simple. For all of Darth Sidious' skill and power in the Darkside, he has one fundamental flaw and weakness inherent in ALL Sith Lords.

    His overconfidence is his weakness. That is where he would screw up with Obi-Wan.

    Sidious would go into the fight already thinking he has won. That's a recipe for disaster.

    Obi-Wan Kenobi knows how Sith Lords think.
  25. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    Yeah, I think it's an exaggeration, but the thing is, the phrasing of that quote makes it seem like McDiarmid doesn't realize that light travels faster than sound. A lot faster. So I don't know whether he said that to be funny, or because he doesn't know what he's talking about...
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