What if Obi-Wan Kenobi was in Mace's place?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by wassssup, May 10, 2005.

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  1. sithjoe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2002
    star 2
    Great thread, "can't believe it's hit one million posts"[face_laugh]

    Anyway, as I see it:

    (Stay with me here for a bit!!)

    Frazier bt Ali (1)
    Ali bt Frazier (2)
    Ali bt Frazier (3)

    Between 1 & 2, Foreman DESTROYED Frazier.
    Ali bt Foreman, with a lot less trouble than he beat Frazier.

    My point?
    Some fighters, no matter how good they are, no matter how fast etc, just plain struggle with other good, but lesser fighters!

    Fight 1

    Tyrannus slaps Obi silly in AOTC
    He then makes a punk out of Ani.
    Doesn't break a sweat really, owned both of them.

    Result = DT better fighter than both Ani, who finished 2nd and Obi 3rd.

    Fight 2

    Once again, DT OWNS Kenobi. His plan was to dispose of Obi quickly, then turn Anakin. e did what he set out to do with Kenobi, with ease.

    However, Knight Skywalker kicks DT's butt with ease.

    Result = Ani 1st, Dooku 2nd Kenobi 3rd.

    Over-all = Ani / DT / Kenobi 3rd by a distance.

    Now, going by this, Obi should never have beaten Ani. My point finally, is that Ani was Ali, Obi was Frazier, Dooku was Foreman.

    That would therefore make the Emperor Iron Mike, "unlimited" power, but would eventually loose to Holyfield, a fighter in the image of smokin' Joe.

    Geez, this is long winded for ME, how are you guys ever gonna understand it?!!

    In conclusion:

    Ani - The Greatest
    Obi - The one who could best the greatest, i.e - Frazier
    DT - Foreman, who destroyed Frazier, but couldn't live with Ani post Padawan.
    DS - Tyson.

    Basically, I think Obi would beat Sids!!8-}

  2. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    as i said before.obi wan beating sidious would be like utah jazz sweeping the detroit pistons in 4 games.not impossible but highly unlikely
  3. Fat_Bird Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2005
    star 2
    I have nothing to add to the discussion at this point, but I'd like to thank everyone for keeping me entertained. I love reading through these posts. :)
  4. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    please stop,you'll make other users blush [face_blush]
  5. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I agree that OBW most likely would not have been able to take out the Emperor. But don't you think that he would have chosen to do things differently? Perhaps not three Jedi, let's rather say ten Jedi... and his beloved friend Cody and some other Clones that Sideous could kill... The evidence you know... what about bringing a couple of senators...

    If this thread was called "What if Obi-Wan Kenobi was in Yoda's place (the duel with Sideous)?" Then you could say - oh, poor guy, he's in for a rough ride. Unless the Emperor is so arrogant that he thinks he is unbeatable...
  6. dude4c Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2003
    star 3
    i can't beleive this thread is still going on.
    i beleive that obiwan would have been killed also. not because he is less of a jedi than mace, but because sidious would have been able to use the "he's holding you back" card, and anakin would have cut obi's hand off too. anakin was frustrated with obi's training, and may have harbored even more hate for obi than he did for mace. for me the key to mace arresting and later trying to kill sids is when sids convinces anakin that mace is a traitor and would kill an unarmed person.
  7. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    yep,a "what if" thread surpasing the 700 posts,thats something.
  8. dude4c Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2003
    star 3
    i will say i don't think obiwan would have been killed like the other 3 jedi mace brought. but he surley would have been killed. obiwans master of saber defence technique may have kept him alive as long as mace was. but that is it.
  9. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Since Obi-Wan Kenobi beat Anakin Skywalker fair and square with no marks on him what-so-ever....your statement is confusing.

    The Emperor is at a higher saber level than Obi-Wan, so Obi-Wan doesn't even have a chance at winning. The only reason that he was able to beat Anakin was because the latter was emotional and made mistakes, which Obi-Wan was able to take advantage of through superior experience. He would enjoy no such advantage over the Emperor who would have much more control than Anakin and would not make mistakes.

    Obi-Wan stands as good of a chance as the Royal Guards because I don't think he could block lightning. If he simply stands there and gets electrocuted, Obi-Wan won't even be able to fight back.

    Lucas said "you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor". This means Obi-Wan can't even compete with the Emperor. If you can't compete with someone, then you can't even entertain the notion of winning.

    I think the dialouge in the film was intended to show how insanely powerful the Emperor is. Yoda said that Obi-Wan isn't strong enough to fight the Emperor because Lucas wants the audience to know that Obi-Wan is far below the Emperor in terms of power.

    Oh boy, Darth Sidious beat three background characters, lost to Mace, and had a draw with Yoda.

    Not to mention he owned Luke. The Yoda fight resulted in a victory for the Emperor, as the OS, novel, and Commentary state. All of these accomplishments are much more impressive than anything Obi-Wan ever did. Palpatine's victory over the posse is the most impressive lightsaber feat in the saga and was intended to make the Emperor look extremely powerful. The OS and novel say they are three of the greatest Jedi Masters. The vast majority of Jedi would be below their level. This means that the Emperor could easily kill any of the hundreds of Jedi in lightsaber combat, with the exception of Mace, Yoda, and possibly Anakin. Lucas refuted the idea of Mace's posse being a B-team by replying "you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" when someone mentioned that. This means the posse wasn't that bad, the Emperor is simply that good.

    When there's only three people who are even at the Emperor's saber level and everyone else will get killed in seconds, that's extremely impressive. Its amazing that the Emperor could fight four Jedi Masters at the same time and kill three of them in seconds even when he's so outnumbered.
  10. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    It doesn't matter how emotionally unstable someone is when they are throwing bombs at you left and right. It requires SKILL and power to deflect that. Vader is supposedly a level 9 against Obi-Wan on Mustafar. Technically that means even if Vader was an emotional wreck and having his worst day, Obi-Wan STILL shouldn't have been able to last 5 seconds.

    Look how Vader did Cin Drallig. He was fighting him ONE Handed. And according to the novel Cin Drallig was "the toad" and taught Obi-Wan lightsaber combat.

    The Mustafar duel negates and nullifies all of this "you have to be Mace, Yoda etc" garbage because it is direct visual contradictory evidence to that statement.

    That's why the Mustafar duel was so significant and important to the saga and story. Obi-Wan represented essentially the last vestiges of good and right. If he fell, darkness would rule forever. Vader would go on to overthrow the Emperor, become Emperor, and cast a dark shadow on the galaxy worse than Palpatines.
    Obi-Wan rose to the occasion like a champion because He KNEW the outcome. He knew what was at stake and what he was fighting for. He was essentially the last good guy.

    If you notice, EVERY good guy dies, or gets beat in the film, except Obi-Wan, he represents the last light of hope by the end of the film.

    Mace fell, Yoda retreated, Padme died, the Jedi Order was wiped out. Only Obi-Wan stood triumphant. But it was an empty victory. Because even though Obi-Wan won, he still lost his best friend to the Revenge of the Sith.

    Obi-Wan doesn't sweat Force lightning. If Mace Windu can stand there and block it, why can't Obi-Wan do it, especially considering the fact we have SEEN him do it???
    And giving Luke as an example isn't very logical considering the fact he threw his saber down and stood there and allowed Sidious to electrocute him. It doesn't require much skill to shock the hell out of someone when they are just standing there prone.

    I can't believe people are so blinded by Sidious' hype that the HERO of the story has to be defended in chat forums.
    Yeah Sidious was cool and all and it was neat seeing him fight finally but come on! This is Obi-Wan Kenobi we are talking about here. The General and Hero of the Clone Wars, the Sith Killer and last remaining Jedi. If ANYONE should be able to stand toe to toe against the worst evil in the universe it should be Obi-Wan! Since Palpatine is kind of the evil version of Obi-Wan. That's why Lucas had the scene in the opera, to mirror the conversation between Luke and Ben in ANH.

    As far as Yoda I have said it before, I believe firmly he said that to Obi-Wan because he wanted Obi-Wan to go and face Vader. Because it was Obi-Wan's responsibility, and he wouldn't have done it because he didn't want to face his best friend in a fight, much less kill him. Yoda also said the Dark Side isn't stronger than the light, but how many Sith fans actually believe that?

    No I don't believe Obi-Wan could kill the Emperor because only the Chosen One can do that by betraying him from within, but to suggest Obi-Wan would just stand there and not stand up for good and right and lay down in front of Sidious is preposterous. Obi-Wan would fight Sidious with all of the urgency and understanding that he fought Vader with.
  11. COMMANDER76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    Anakin and Sidious are at the exact same lightsaber level...

    You cannot say for sure that Sidious would NOT make any mistakes when facing Obi-Wan Kenobi...therefore even you must consider Kenobi's prior victory over an established level 9 duelist as evidence that he has more than a sporting chance here.

    Sidious is not perfect...in fact he is disarmed in consecutive duels.
    Since Kenobi's defences are legendary and Sidious couldn't break Mace's I see no reason to automatically assume Sidious would "somehow" get the job done against Kenobi who has more experience with Sith Lords than any other Jedi.
  12. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    I'll even go one further Commander,


    If Sidious ever did fight Obi-Wan, he would be wise to stay the hell away from Obi-Wan and Force throw BIG things at him like he did Yoda.
  13. dude4c Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2003
    star 3
    um obiwan can block lightning. i saw it myself in AOTC. i'm not sure who your responding to, but even though obiwan is a good defensive dulist i still think he would have been killed. much like mace was. i do think that obiwan would have been able to fend off sidious until anakin got there.
  14. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Good one;)

    Sideous showed himself not to be unbeatable. Windu bested him, and I think Yoda did as well (as I said, look at their expression in the last seconds of their duel). Yoda says to Sideous that he is too confident in the power of the dark side... Yoda is right. It is ultimately the downfall of the Emperor...

    OBW could fare well against the Emperor, but he would have to do it another way I think than Mace did...
  15. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    The Mustafar duel negates and nullifies all of this "you have to be Mace, Yoda etc" garbage because it is direct visual contradictory evidence to that statement.

    Not it doesn't because Anakin isn't the Emperor. Lucas himself said only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor, so that makes it true. If Obi-Wan can't even compete with him, then that means he could never win.

    Just Anakin is at the same saber level as the Emperor, doesn't mean Obi-Wan could hang with the Emperor. I think that what you're forgetting is the Emperor's force powers are far beyond Anakin's. Dooku was able to easily take Obi-Wan out with force powers, so the Emperor would be able to do so even more easily.

    If Yoda sends Obi-Wan to fight Anakin saying that he isn't strong enough to fight the Emperor, that means he considers Anakin the weaker of the two. This opinion is supported by the creator himself, so we know it is true, unlike Yoda's opinion about the dark side which is contradicted by the creator.

    I think the Emperor could easily kill Obi-Wan with lightning because Obi-Wan is weaker than Mace and the Emperor's lightning is much stronger than Dooku's. This interpretation works best for me because I like to think of the Emperor as a dominating super villain. This is how he was initially portrayed and I'm not happy with the results of his duels in ROTS. We have no proof that Obi-Wan can block the Emperor's lightning, so my opinion that Obi-Wan would end up like Luke is not so far-fetched.
  16. dude4c Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2003
    star 3
    dooku didn't use force powers he used his lightsaber. did you even see AOTC. that is the 2nd thing you got wrong that AOTC proves right.
  17. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Force throwing someone isn't "easily taking them out using Force Powers" Farrell. That is merely one move in a fight.


    Does that mean Yoda easily took Sidious out because he Force threw him all the way across the room?

    Does that mean Obi-Wan easily took Grievous out because he Force threw him all the way across a hangar bay?

    No
  18. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    dooku didn't use force powers he used his lightsaber. did you even see AOTC. that is the 2nd thing you got wrong that AOTC proves right.

    I'm aware that Dooku defeated Obi-Wan with a lightsaber in AOTC. I was referring to when Dooku beat Obi-Wan with a force throw in ROTS.

    Does that mean Yoda easily took Sidious out because he Force threw him all the way across the room?

    No, because the move didn't incapacitate the Emperor the way Dooku's force push did to Obi-Wan. Dooku's move shows he has superior mastery of the Force than Obi-Wan. If Dooku is better than Obi-Wan, then the Emperor is going to be much better, since he's Dooku's Master. I think 500 times better would be an accurate description.
  19. COMMANDER76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    Not the 500 times stuff again...lol[face_sick]
  20. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    What about the clumsy fall of the Emperor after Yoda's force push then? that shows a fumbling Sideous[face_laugh]

    The Emperor is not 500 times more powerful than OBW, that's rediculous... I don't think he is much more powerful at all, but he IS more powerful nontheless.
  21. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4

    you simply dont get that if GL says that only anakin mace and yoda can compete with the emperor its because he thinks that way ,right ??.

    if kenobi beated anakin is irrelevant.

    ROTS DVD says that anakin lost for the emotional part of the fight.end of discussion

    the OS says that the posse were very skilled jedi masters,not a b-team.end of discussion

    GL says that only mace yoda and anakin can compete with the emperor.end of discussion

    GL doesnt directly say that obi wan is no match for the emperor but all his quotes imply that.
  22. RurouniKJS Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2005
    star 2
    The original post raised a good question. I think if Kenobi had lasted long enough to disarm Sids (assuming the "Sids wuz faking" argument), matters would have transpired differently. Anakin's Jedi heroism is much stronger when he and Obi are together, and Sidious' hold on him is that much less. Obi also would not have gone against the "Jedi Way" by attempting to execute Sidious on the spot. His commitment to the freedom of the Republic would be too great. (Note that in the final film, Obi-Wan is removed from the "Jedi coup" scenes.)

    Sidious' lightning is obviously several orders stronger than Tyranus', given how the latter is easily blocked by Obi and Yoda compared to Mace's and Yoda's extreme effort in doing so against the former. So conceivably, Sidous could defeat Obi-Wan even with blocked lightning. Seeing his best friend being fried by the Sith Lord would spur Anakin to arrest Palpatine himself, and the two heroes of the Republic would arrest Sidious together.

    Sidious would then work the system to be exonerated of any wrongdoing while smearing the good name of the Jedi while continuing to goad Anakin into becoming his pupil. Obi would be distracted by the public outcry against the Council. Finally, in utter desperation as Padmé's due date draws near and convinced by Palpatine that his wife is doomed unless he learns the dark side, Anakin pledges himself to the Sith and Order 66 is executed. It goes a lot more messily for the bad guys as the Jedi are forewarned, but even they cannot fight the entire Republic turned against them.

    Anakin, again goaded by the fear of his wife's death, does Sidious' bidding to attack the Jedi Temple. Backed by an army of clones, he lays siege to the Temple, then orders it destroyed from without, killing the Jedi within.

    Except, of course, the consummate survivor Obi-Wan. They converge on a Padmé in labor and duel to the death. Obi wants to save what's left of his loved ones and Ani fights to keep Obi from "stealing" his wife. In the end, the neglected Padmé dies and one of the two heroes of the former Republic -- now reorganized into the First Galactic Empire -- lies dead. Which one? Who knows -- all that matters is that "once moah the Sith RULE tha GALAXY" in the person of Darth Sidious.
  23. dude4c Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2003
    star 3
    yoda doesn't imply it, he flat out says it. and yeah 500 times more powerful, easy now.
  24. COMMANDER76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    If Sidious wasn't faking the whole time...
    Then as a defensive specialist Kenobi stands as good of a chance as Mace Windu if the fight stays a lightsaber focused event as it did. Shatterpoints aside I have every confidence that Kenobi would find a way to last until Anakin arrived...he may well have taken Anakin with him in the first place. And with Sidious down...the encounter would favor Obi-Wan Kenobi and his knowledge of how Padme fits into the puzzle.

    If Sidious was faking...
    Then Obi-Wan will last as long as Mace did out of pure neccessity.

    In either case...Obi Wan Kenobi has a good chance of competing well with Sidious when given his physical parameters...its more probable that Lucas excluded Kenobi from contention because he never will face Sidious on-screen or off.
  25. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    I think Lucas didn't include Kenobi as a Jedi who can compete with the Emperor because he's leagues below him in power. This is made clear with Yoda's statement and the fact that Obi-Wan is a level 8. Lucas says Anakin is more powerful than Obi-Wan, and the Emperor is more powerful than Anakin. Even Dooku has better control of the Force than Obi-Wan, and the Count is much less powerful than the Emperor. According to Lucas, Obi-Wan can't even compete with the Emperor let alone beat him.
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