What if Obi-Wan Kenobi was in Mace's place?

I respectfully disagree, even though this may be the first time I am on the completely opposite side as you. You seem to have changed your point of view here, COMMANDER76.
I think that, while better off than Mace's posse, Kenobi wouldn't fare very well against Sidious. Lucas and Yoda agree on that point, and I do think Lucas would have mentioned Obi-Wan if he could compete with the Emperor even though he never actually faced the Emperor in combat, because he mentioned what Anakin could have done if he hadn't gotten beat up, and Anakin never faced the Emperor in combat before he got beat up, or at all, really, because tossing the Emperor into that hole wasn't combat in the strictest sense. So I think Lucas mentioned all that could stand a chance against the Emperor there, and it was just Mace, Yoda and Anakin. Kenobi, while a very skilled and powerful Jedi, is not in the same league as either of these characters.

Besides, if Obi-Wan would have the same ability against the Emperor as Mace did, it raises the question why he and Yoda didn't take on the Emperor together. Surely, if Obi-Wan had any lasting power against the Emperor, wouldn't they be able use that numerical advantage to win?

I tend to think that Lucas included Anakin's potential in reference to Sidious because this entire saga is about Anakin Skywalker and the decisions he makes and how he spends 20+ plus years paying for them...and using that rationale it wouldn't be neccessary for Lucas to even comment about "dream" match-ups like Kenobi V Sidious that never materialize.

We're not on opposite sides here Master MTC...we never really are...I just feel that while Mace is obviously the superior Jedi in wisdom and power he doesn't know everything he needs to know about the situation prior to igniting his lightsaber. It is in these areas...mainly the experience of facing Sith Apprentices in Maul and Tyranus, and the knowledge of how Padme plays into the picture that I grant favor to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

This is a "What If" thread right?

I'm simply playing out the "If" for all its worth.

*bows*

We're not on opposite sides here Master MTC...we never really are...I just feel that while Mace is obviously the superior Jedi in wisdom and power he doesn't know everything he needs to know about the situation prior to igniting his lightsaber. It is in these areas...mainly the experience of facing Sith Apprentices in Maul and Tyranus, and the knowledge of how Padme plays into the picture that I grant favor to Obi-Wan Kenobi.

In terms of understanding Anakin's mental state, Obi-Wan definitely could have done a better job than Mace, although I'm not sure it would have made a difference. However, in terms of fighting abilites, I think its clear that Obi-Wan is not anywhere near Mace's level, so he wouldn't be able to "compete" in a straight fight.

Obi-Wan might try a different approach than Mace that involves Anakin. However, if he decided to fight the Emperor on his own, he'd probably be dead before Anakin got there since Dooku takes him out so quickly. If Anakin was present while Obi-Wan was fighting the Emperor, then it would depend on which person could present a stronger case to Anakin on joining his side.

Using that possible scenario of Kenobi bringing Anakin along...it would be too dangerous for Sidious to fake defeat because not even he could be sure that Anakin would kill Kenobi to save him...Mace is a different story.

With Kenobi in the picture...Anakin's loyalties would become a lot LESS clear.

IMO Anakin before his fall loved:
1. Padme
2. Kenobi
3. Republic/Palpatine

IMO Anakin after his fall loved:
1. Padme
2. Republic/Palpatine
3. Kenobi

I think Obi Wan had as good a chance of Mace, maybe slightly less in fighting Sidious. But it just wasn't his destiny, like it was for him to fight Anakin and Grievous. If everything was already set in motion, he just wouldn't have gone in Mace's place. But, I think it is possible if he did go, he would have fared similarly as Mace, but still met the fate of Mace by Anakin and Sidious. I don't think Anakin would have reacted differently if Obi had Sidious at bay, I beleive he had already been seduced when Sidious told him about Plagueis at the opera. He was hell bent on saving Padme, and no one would be able to deter him. Obi would unfortunately have met the same grisly end as Mace.

First off I don't think it's even a question as to whether Obi-Wan would take Anakin or not. I feel that is a given. Now with Anakin at his side and probably some more Jedi, Palpatine would be in a tight spot. He has to either try and talk his way out of it or he has to choose to fight like he did. Jumping at them with his saber while shreiking. Now if he does this, he is endangering his plan of turning Anakin. He is showing agression towards him and an attempt to kill him. A confrontation with Anakin is something Palpatine would not want. First he knows just how powerful Anakin is and he is supposed to be the Chosen One who will destroy the Sith. Now from the start Palpatine is in a tight spot. He must choose to fight or try and talk his way out of it. Either way I think he would be in trouble because of Kenobi's presence. Obi-Wan may not be more powerful than some but what he lacks in skills he makes up in experience and intelligence. He is more capable of fighting Palpatine than anyone in Mace's posse and would have no problem fighting Palpatine. Sure he would probably lose on a one-on-one fight but then again this is a 'what if' thread. It never happens on never will. So saying Kenobi could fight Palpatine, could beat Palpatine, or would be killed is all specualtion. Another fact is Obi-Wan is, as Anakin admitted, like a father to him. This is crucial to this 'what if' thread. Obi-Wan is that influence over Anakin that Palpatine fears, this is exactly why he makes sure Kenobi is either killed(which fails) or has him off Coruscant before he reveals himself. With Kenobi, Anakin's father figure, out of the way he has a better chance of turning Anakin.

Well, considering Dooko handed Kenobie his ass 2 times and assuming Sidious is more powerful than Dooko, I would have to say Kenobie couldn't compete. Even Master Yoda aggrees with that. But, I wouldn't be surprised if Kenobie shocked me. He did defeat the chosen one. Kenobie is like a coin. You never know what face is going to show up. It seems like he has an A game and a B game. So in conclusion...I don't know yet.

Plus Obi Wan would have the good sense to re-iterate to Anakin thats its been Sidious/Palpatine behind all those Padme assassination attempts for years. I just feel that in the battle of wits for Anakin's very soul...OB1 is the better all-around choice. Anakin loves Kenobi and trusts him...those two factors could have swayed this thing the other way.

So what if Anakin and Obi-Wan lost...

It would have still left Mace and Yoda to go after Sidious

But does kenobie know that it was sidious in the assination attempts. I mean if he knows then Anakin should know too, right? The only info Kenobie has is he's a Dark Lord, and Anakin already knows that. When I think about it that makes Anakin seem even more dumb for falling for sidious.

Anakin IS that dumb...lol

Both Anakin and Obi-Wan traced the Padme assassination plots back to Jango and then to Dooku...who gets his orders from Sidious. Even Anakin could deduce this much after Palpatine told him who exactly he was...but he balked on doing the right thing.

Kenobi would remind Anakin of the type of man he's considering aligning himself with...especially since the novel confirms that Kenobi already knew about Padme/Anakin's relationship but that he kept it from the Council because it made Anakin happy.

Agreed. Im off to play Xbox. GUN-bad f#@king game.

WOW...I'm jealous

I'm in a holding pattern waiting on my 360

Another reason why I feel Obi would've fared better than Mace, is because Obi always "thinks" before igniting his blade.

Example 1

Duel with Anakin, "I will do what I must" then ignites his blade, and moves to an area away from Padme, and where he had room to fight.
I think if Mace went to Mustafar, he'd have gone on the aggressive straight away,probably trampled on Padme on the way to meet anakin, and fought under the fuel tanks of the ship!! (Thus giving Anakin the "moral" high ground, by having to defend himself)

Example 2

Mace walks into Palps office, with a crew, delivers the "under arrest" line then ignites, forces Palps to fight fire with fire.
Obi would not have made the mistake of having 4 masters stand so close together that they couldn't swing a saber and be easy pickings for the Emperor.

Obi ALWAYS leaves room to fight, and works very well in co-ordinated attacks on the Sith:

Great team work with QGJ in the attack on Maul. It was when he got seperated from Qui, that QGJ lost his life. Obi killed Maul, but not after receiving his trade mark "Sith push"

Told Anakin to wait and take DT together on Geonosis, Ani didn't listen , they get seperated, Ani looses arm.

Versus DT (2) works well in team attack on DT, receives his trade mark "Sith Push" earlier than expected, but it left the opening for Ani to exploit, resulting in the death of DT.

Versus Vader (1) gives a force push, but receives his trademark force push midway into the fight! Loosing on points, about to loose life in close combat with Ani who was growing ever stronger as the fight went on, YET had the sense to again, move to an area where he had more room to fight, AND gave him a tactical advantage.

Look again at Mace on Geonosis, walks in on a Bounty Hunter and a Sith Lord. Who does he bring along to the viewing box?? Nobody! Who's throat does he aim his blade at?? The Sith Lord?? No!! The Bounty Hunter!! Hired help, that the FAR more dangerous Sith Lord could care less about. Mace has to escape, ass and cloak burned, and get into an arena where he had more room to fight, and against over-whelming odds, survive with no small thanks to the greatest team player of them all....Obi!!!

Versus Vader (2) Older, but wiser!! Knows he has to confront Vader, knows that the only way to bring balance back to the force, is the redemption of the Chosen one, through unconditional love, which he has for his son. Does he choose to fight on the side of the Death Star? Nope!
He does it so that he can aid the escape of the Falcon, AND let Luke see Vader for the first time. Perhaps also getting Vader to sense his son as well. Certainly planting the seeds of redemption anyway! I think Mace would've jumped out of the false floor, resulting in the deaths of Han, Chewie and Co, and eventually lost to Vader in the hanger bay, after tripping over a dead stormtrooper and falling into one of those massive holes!!!!

Although Obi would have been "Sith pushed" all over Palps office, I do believe that the Sith past-time of Kenobi-bouncing would've given the other masters, better positioned masters from a Kenobi led arrest, an opening to kill Palps, or at the very least dis-arm him...literally!!

Hence, the what if in MHO, would have resulted in arrest and lost limbs for the Emperor. But that would have had writing issues for George Lucas, who would have to remake ROTJ, with lightning coming out of the Emperors eyes!!

I don't object to Darth Sidious beating Obi-Wan Kenobi, because Sidious is pretty damn powerful, and Obi-Wan represents the underdog "everyman" Jedi. Sort of like US if we were in Star Wars. The blue collar workhorse of the Order. Got a tough assignment?? Go get Kenobi.

What I object to is the outlandish and completely unrealistic assertion that Darth Sidious would somehow walk over Obi-Wan Kenobi like he was a bumbling dolt or something. That is ludacris and doesnt reflect on what we know about Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Obi-Wan is the ultimate good guy even more than Yoda, now granted that isn't much of an in-universe explanation as to why I believe Obi-Wan could take some serious chopsake to Sidious.

This is why I believe Obi-Wan can bring some weight to Sidious:

1. As a Padawan sensed Sidious, when no one else did.
2. As a Padawan, defeated a Sith Lord when a Master fell.
3. As a newly Knighted Jedi, was given the supreme task of TRAINING the Chosen One. How much faith is that in Obi-Wan by Yoda and Mace??? Come on. The guy JUST became a Knight.
If there was even the slightest belief on their part, shouldn't YODA or MACE have trained Anakin?? They didn't, that speaks volumes of the regard they have for Obi-Wan and his abilities.
4. As a Knight, kicked the living s*** out of the model and pattern for an entire CLONE ARMY, the most dangerous Bounty Hunter alive.
5. As a Knight, uncovered the greater plot regarding the Clones.
6. As a Master, defeated the Jedi-Killer General Grievous, effectively ending the Clone Wars.
7. As a Master, defeated the Chosen One, preventing him from achieving iltimate evil and power.
8.As a Master , became one of only two characters in the entire universe powerful enough to preserve his identity beyond death and able to come back in physical form.
Mace didn't do that. Qui-Gon Jinn didn't do that. Palpatine didn't do that. Dooku didn't do that. Anakin didn't do that, he required Yoda and Obi-Wan to preserve him.


Contrast all of that...with Dooku beat Obi-Wan.

Kinda a small tarnish on an otherwise ****ing IMPRESSIVE record don't you think?

Obi-Wan is the man.

NICE! So if OBW was killed, the two strongest Jedi were remaining. Yoda and Windu against Sideous and Vader... something tells me Anakin couldn't have escaped the suit then either

I agree! Hell of a record... probably would look nice in a job interview

OBW was amazing in the films. He accomplished more than any other Jedi - Yoda could probably have done many of the same things, but he didn't...
As you said, Obi-Wan is the man!!

That's a pretty discriminatory statement.

That's a pretty discriminatory statement.




wassssup posted:
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"What if Obi-wan was in Mace's place, and Mace was off world like most of the Jedi masters."

Then Jesse Jackson would be picketing outside of the Jedi Temple.


good, you are.
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I totally agree legion_of_me. Although I'd say not really a shock considering the attitudes on these threads.

Anakin would still choose Palpatine , to save Padme'

Agreed.

And that's because Padme was right when she said love has blinded Anakin. He became blind to the lies all around him, the truth being told by those who loved him, and that he would literally kill for love.

NICE! So if OBW was killed, the two strongest Jedi were remaining. Yoda and Windu against Sideous and Vader... something tells me Anakin couldn't have escaped the suit then either


so sure you are ?

sidious already proved that he can defeat yoda (even though some people are in extreme denial mode)

the question remains in can anakin defeat mace or yoda ?

If that was an attempt at humor, you failed miserably.

I think that Palpatine would have somehow twisted the situation to his advantage and bring the two of them to conflict. Palps is just too wily.

One thing with Obi been put in Windu shoes is that Obi would have brought Ani to begin with. Obi has complete faith in Ani and the fact he is the chosen one.If Ani had arrived with Obi and the posse Palps would have been beaten.

QFT. Your insight on this topic has been very um... insightful.

I don't think it's about denial. Yoda lost for two reasons, he was on the clock, and he has a lower body wieght than Palpatine. The last move of the fight, Sidious and Yoda are dead even in power, and when the lightning explodes, it sends both men flying. Yoda flies further because he weighs less. Then Yoda retreats because he has too much ground to cover if he wanted to get back to Palpatine, and he knows that stormtroopers are on their way. I'm not saying Yoda would have won, but he was clearly even with Palpatine for the whole fight, and was forced to retreat due to circumstances beyond either combatants control.