PT What if Qui-Gon had survived and trained Anakin?

What he got out of his relationship with Palpatine was a lot of ego-stroking and being told how special he is. He also admired (and at least subconsciously desired) the man's power. He got himself to sincerely believe, at least until halfway through RotS, that Palpatine was a good man, because that would validate what Palpatine did for his ego. That doesn't mean he saw Palpatine as being like his Dad.

Maybe we have a different understanding of what it means to be a father-figure. But to me, those elements aren't enough. And I think they would not be enough even in Anakin's parenting-craving psyche. Because Anakin did have a model of what a good parent should be: his mother. We see in TPM that she is firm with Anakin. If not for the offworlders' need for help, she wouldn't have let Anakin podrace had she any choice in the matter, even though he enjoys it and she knows he is able to do it. There's also that brief glimpse of her through the doorway, the night Qui-Gon & co spent in their home, raising her voice saying, "Ani! I'm not going to tell you again!" She's used to being obeyed by him.

I didn't mean to suggest that Anakin was implying Obi-Wan wasn't his friend and mentor; sorry I wasn't clear. What I was saying is that the very reason why he saw fit to add that Obi-Wan is like his father is because to Anakin, being a friend and a mentor isn't by itself enough to make an older man a father-figure. But from all we actually see of his relationship with Palpatine, the guy is simply "a friend and a mentor". Anakin doesn't act like a son towards him, despite Palpatine addressing him as such. He acts like a favoured young protegé who knows that the man will always take his side.

From the perspective of psychological realism, of course Anakin wouldn't say to Obi-Wan, "Palpatine's like my Dad". What I intended by pointing out the significance of the line was a more OOU significance. Verbal cues and leitmotifs about characters' (perceptions of) relationships are important in SW, much more than psychological realism is (I can't think of a single major character from the films who is portrayed in a pyschologically naturalistic way). To me, the echoing of Padmé's words is intended to deliberately remind the audience of what is being left out, and to prompt them to draw inferences about Anakin's perceptions based on that.

An important element of a parental relationship is protectiveness, a tendency to want to shelter the child perhaps even when they don't need it. I do not doubt Anakin knew this, even if only subconsciously. He gets it from Shmi, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. In fact, what he's rebelling against the most in AotC is Obi-Wan's desire (which even in the Council's view is unwarranted) to protect Anakin from himself, his passions and his power. And Palpatine never offers him protectiveness. He's always goading Anakin to *do more*, to use his powers and passions with less hesitation, because he's the best, he's invincible, nothing can touch him; not to second-guess himself when Obi-Wan or the Jedi were stern with him, because he was better than them. I think on some level Anakin recognised that this was deeply un-parental. It's immediately after the most explicitly parental scene in RotS (Obi-Wan's departure) that Anakin recognises the wrongness of what Palpatine was telling him ("I want more, and I know I shouldn't.").

 

Indeed, a good point that had occurred to me also, but I didn't raise. It might be fun to look at.

Qui-Gon was sixty during TPM (and thus potentially started the sixty-is-the-new-fourty). He would likely have fairly easily made it through the events of Jedi Quest as Anakin's master, but beyond that? We were told OOU that one of the reasons he lost to Maul was slowing down and age. And despite being skilled with a lightsaber, he was no Windu, Yoda, Dooku, or Anakin. Could he have survived the encounter with Jango? Very possible. Could he have survived a duel with Dooku? debatable. On one hand he would be utterly outclassed, from what we have observed. On the other, he would potentially know his masters lightsaber style well, and perhaps how to counter it or withstand it. Dooku certainly doesn't have the youth advantage, and Qui-Gon's growth and mastery of the force would not have been static in these years. Plus, Dooku may have hesitated to strike down his student, even as far gone as he was. Perhaps long enough for Yoda to arrive.

What I wonder, is could he have survived the Clone Wars? Every year counts against him. Ventress, Grevious, (Durge?,) and more encounters with Dooku after he has chance to resolve himself.

Ideally, Obi-Wan survives as well, and they triumphed over Maul as a pair. This leaves Kenobi around to hold the same role in TCW that he always did, with the brotherly emphasis still there, even as the resented 'master' one is absent. In this event, Qui-Gon might be able to take the wise-old-mentor place at the temple, off the front line. He would be seventy to seventy four, after all. He has done his years.

ROTS is where it all goes wrong, in this line of thought. If things still play out much the same, despite Qui-Gon's influence, then all is lost. Obi-Wan doesn't know Anakin as well in this timeline, and while he would be familiar with his combat style, not to the extent he needed to be in ROTS to survive his onslaught. He was constantly on the retreat as it was in the Mustafar duel, blows that he should have killed Anakin with blocked with inhuman skill (the block behind his back, comes to mind), and that level of familiarity just isn't there, as he didn't train him here. If Qui-Gon even survived Order 66, at this point the duel would go much the same as with Dooku, but perhaps faster. The only hope I can see for Vader to end up in the suit, and thus not end up Emperor himself before ANH, would be them again tag-teaming him as they would have Maul in this timeline.

Just some of my thoughts.

However, if the Emperor had slain Qui-Gon along with the Masters that went with Windu... perhaps his body on the floor would have changed that stand off.

 

Some thoughts of my own.
If Qui-Gon lived things could have been radically different. Dooku may well not have turned to the dark side without the death of his former Padawan due to, in part, senate corruption. That being the case he may well have been on hand in some capacity as Qui-Gon's friend and ally. In this scenario I would guess that it would be Sifo Dyas who was corrupted by Palpatine ( given he apparently did order the clone army of his own back) .
I could actually see Dooku and Qui Gon growing dissatisfied with the senate to the point they both leave the order and form their own sect of some sort, taking Anakin with them ( especially considering that in AOTC there seems to have been no follow up on the Sith, Can't see that sitting well with Qui-Gon).
Perhaps Dooku would form the confederacy with Qui- gon at his side forming a new Jedi Faction.

Either way I am sure a war would happen ( perhaps Palpatine would have Dyas act as a double agent in Dooku's ranks and give him the clones while the hard pressed Republic under the guidance of the Chancellor enlist the armies of the Commerce guilds?)

 

If Qui-Gon had trained Anakin, he would have been aware of his affection for Padme much earlier on and intentionally done something to prevent the two of them from potentially acting out their feelings for one another. Thus he would not be her security details in AOTC.

Palpatine, if he still wanted Anakin to be his apprentice, simply could have used something else to manipulate him towards the Dark Side. Him becoming Vader very well could have happened. Then there would be no Jedi twins to save the Galaxy without the secret marriage with Padme. Having Anakin trained by Qui-Gon would have made things worse.

 

I've always had the firm belief that bringing Anakin's mother along would've kept him from turning. All of the fear Yoda sensed from him had to do with losing his mom. He lost her, slaughtered living beings out of hatred, and the rest is a dark period of history.

 

It would have helped anyway.

 

He would have taught Anakin the lessons of the whills, and Anakin would have avoided being manipulated by Palpatine. Obi-Wan was loyal to the council, the Republic, and democracy, and Qui Gon was loyal to himself, his conscience, his compassion, and his instincts. "I will do what I must."

 

I think anakin would act the same like a whiny b**** and blame qui gon for no reason when he didnt do anything.

 

Anakin would still have gone over to the dark side as Padme would still be - in his mind- in danger of death. Qui-Gonn seemed particularly fond of Anakin which may have made the fall easier.

 

Here's the question though- had Anakin fallen to the dark side and went on his Jedi killing spree, would Qui-Gon have gone after him like Obi-Wan did? Would he have paired with Yoda against the Emperor or enlist Obi-Wan's help to bring Anakin down? Would have been interesting.

 

You speculate an excellant point.

To me Qui-Gon would not turn to the dark side- he doesn't seem like he could. I think Yoda and him against the emperor would have been so dramatic and would maintain balance in the force (assuming Obi Wan actually killed Anakin instead of leaving him for dead)

 

A master-padawan relationship is bidimensional. A good master teachs a good padawan and a good padawan teachs a good master. We have all seen the difficult relation between Obi-wan and Anakin in AotC ; but in RotS, they were like brothers, there was mutual understanding between them and a good atmosphère, at least initially. Obviously, something has changed between them during the wars, causing this : they have finally learn to understand each other. But they have not learned to "learn" from each other, or at least, Anakin did not learn to "learn" from Obi - Wan; He did not want to learn from Obi - wan. Unlike the latter who by his behaviour and his reactions in RotS, shows what he learned to relax, to let go of ballast, and to be less conventional and more open to others. All these things that he sorely lacked and that Qui-Gon was doing its best to teach it him: Be Mindful of the Living Force. These qualities were natural at Anakin, but what the latter missed was discipline, rigour and respect for the Jedi values; qualities that Obi - wan had. Qui - Gon had them also, but his obsession with the Living Force, its annoying Mania to circumvent the rules and his rebellious spirit would have helped Anakin to become even more rebellious and more arrogant, not to especially Qui-Gon, but of the Jedi Council and the other members of the order.
My point is that there may not be master-padawan relationship if the master and apprentice have nothing to learn from each other. Qui-Gon has learned from Obi - wan to be more lenient towards others and himself, and to regain its connection with the Living Force (see Jedi Apprentice's novel). Obi - wan was still in the process of learning the way of the LF when Anakin appeared and the latter finished what Qui-Gon had begun. No matter if the master of Anakin was Qui-Gon or Mace or Yoda, it would not have changed something. Anakin was too heastrong to understand the way of the Jedi; to live a life of sacrifice and devotion to the Force, to restrain his desires and dreams and live solely for others and give up his love for Padmé and Shmi. No, he couln't. And no one, not even Qui-Gon, could have changed that because it's not something a master can "teach" to his padawan, but what the padawan must learn by himself from the others, especially from his master. He has not turned to the Dark Side because Palpatine's manipulations, but because he has choose to sacrify the Republic, the Jedi Order and the entire Galaxy for Padmé life.

 

I think things would of been a lot different if he were Anakin's teacher and master, Qui-Gon was a father figure to him and I think he would of stopped palpatine' constant manipulation of his mind.


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True, but I'd bet everything in my pockets against everything in your pockets that Palpatine would have been well aware of this, and would have found a way to arrange her death.

As for the original question...hard to say. I think it's a good point that just because Qui-Gon survived TPM he wouldn't necessarily survive until RotS, and just because he and Anakin wouldn't clash over the same things Anakin and Obi-Wan did doesn't mean there wouldn't be tension. Qui-Gon seemed very focused on Anakin as the subject of the Chosen One prophecy, for example, and I can see Anakin getting frustrated with that. There's more than one way to skin a cat, so I wouldn't say definitively that Qui-Gon surviving to train Anakin would have made a difference in the end.

 

Well I believe that Anakin wouldn't be involved in too much combat. Qui Gon was 60 at the time he discovered Anakin. If Anakin was about twenty years old in AOTC, then Qui-Gon would be 70+ years old, meaning not the kind of jedi you send to fight on the front lines of the clone wars. This could have possibly eased the feelings of Anakin. In addition, Anakin was Kenobi's first actual padawan, so Qui Gon, with more teaching experience, may have done a better job teaching Anakin in the ways of the force (not combat).

 

The age-based claims in this thread boggle me.

 

Haha, well you're pretty much "Tarkin's" admirer, and he wasn't the youngest teen on the Death Star. Great actor that Cushing though.
Back to the topic. I think I bring up a valid point in saying that a 72 year-old Jedi (besides Yoda) would not try to channel his physical prowess to win a fight (since he has none left), but rather try to mentally devise a plan of action initially. His moves are slower, and he will tire out faster, so me must be more calculated and careful.

 

"Look at me, judge me by my [age], do you?"

Qui-Gon's got nothing on the 900+-year-old Yoda. Yoda, mind, led the Kashyyk invasion and single-handedly fought Sidious to a standstill. Pretty sure Qui-Gon could handle fighting in the Clone Wars.

 

Yeah, I don't know about the age thing. Dooku was older than Qui-Gon. Palpatine was older than Qui-Gon. Even if you disregard Yoda as an exception, it's pretty clear that Force-users can stay competent in combat as they get old - though I'm not sure that Qui-Gon personally would have wanted to focus on the fighting side of things.

 

True, but the whole reason he lost to a Sith apprentice was because he was past his prime, according to many other forums. If he was forty, he probably would have done a better job. Just saying, he isn't getting any younger. Plus, even if he DID encounter a Sith/General Grievous at 72+ in the clone wars, he would not do a better job than he did at Naboo. Even if Anakin magically survived the fight himslef, this would still leave him without a master.

 

Oh, yeah, I agree that he might not have survived until RotS, I'm just pointing out that age doesn't always seem to be a factor in a Force-user's fighting skills. I think that part of the reason he lost to Maul is that he wasn't so much combat-oriented to begin with. It's possible age played a role as well; I just don't think that's necessarily true for everybody.

 

Qui Gong would have seen why the council deemed Anakin too old and filled with fear due to his attachments to his mother...especially when he was a teenager...