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Saga What if the Prequels came out in 1977-1983 instead of the Originals?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by skyrimcat9416, Feb 8, 2014.

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  1. skyrimcat9416

    skyrimcat9416 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Nov 1, 2013
    Say the Prequels came out in 1977-1983 and the Originals came out in 1999-2005.

    What if The Phantom Menace came out in 1977 instead of A New Hope? Do you think the reception of would be different?
     
  2. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    Then movies like ANH and so forth would be particularly bashed by the fans.
     
  3. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 23, 1999
    What exactly are you asking?

    (a) The Phantom Menace in its current form is released in 1977. The world goes wild for the effects, because they are even more of a quantum leap over everything else than Star Wars actually was. It's hard to say how the story is received, because SW told a more standard version of the hero's journey, and seemed a little less jargon-y. Also, SW came out of the zeitgeist at a particular time, and people living at the time had certain historical events in the backs of their minds (like Vietnam), which all shaped the way it was received. Would TPM push the same buttons? Who knows?

    (b) The story of TPM was filmed with then-available technology. This is relatively close to what would have happened if GL had stayed with the first (rough?) draft of SW.

    (c) Episode I, with a story not like the Phantom Menace we know but rather telling the backstory to the OT as envisioned in 1977 or as GL saw it in the 80s (before or after the Father Vader retcon, in other words). There are major similarities with the prequels as they exist today, but also noticeable differences.
     
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  4. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    ^^^ I wonder the same. Which scenario are you pondering?
     
  5. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009
    'What-if?' threads aren't really permitted in Saga, but there's a few relevant issues regarding just why this wouldn't have happened (as pointed out by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn above). I'll probably move it over to SWC or PT depending on the direction the discussion takes, but carry on for now.
     
  6. MrCody

    MrCody Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 4, 2013
    crap
     
  7. Han Burgundy

    Han Burgundy Jedi Master star 3

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    Jan 28, 2013
    Firstly, the script of TPM, as we know it, would never have gotten a second look from any producer or studio executive in the mid-70's. That's not to say anything of the quality of the script. It's simply too wierd, too complex in its weirdness, too self-serious, and too esoteric to have been considered at that time. Lucas got laughed away by numerous people when he tried to get ANH made. The reaction to this would have been much worse.

    But secondly, the TPM script, if it had gone into production, would probably have been significantly different in the end than the TPM we know. Right off the bat, the action would need to be scaled down/rearranged, because there was no way to do a massive ground battle between aliens and robots in 1977. But also, the story itself would likely have gone through numerous revisions and alterations that it wouldn't have in 1999. The story of ANH was impacted significantly by sources other than George Lucas, sources who didn't trust their budget for a science fantasy epic solely in the hands of a newcomer like George Lucas, and if you know anything about those changes, you'll know that it mostly served to make ANH a more mainstream-ready, accessible film. Stuff like changing Han Solo from a big green alien to the snarky human we know today. The same would have happened to TPM.

    The focus of TPM would have ended up being very much the focus of ANH: bringing the viewer into the world of Star Wars for the first time and in the most engaging way possible. We probably would have gotten a loud, crash-bang opening scene, we probably would have gotten Qui Gon explaining everything to the viewer, and I suspect Jar Jar would have been a more laid-back, sardonic character akin to Han Solo. And that would just be the beginning. In other words, the story of TPM would be, in several big ways and many many smaller ways, a very different film than what we know today, and the end result would probably have been closer in tone and execution to ANH.

    Would it have still taken the world by storm like ANH did? We can never know for sure, but I think so. I think the audiences of the 70's were more ready for the political aspects than the audiences of the late 90's were (Indeed, I think the PT would have been appreciated more as a Vietnam allegory by the audience of that time), but above all I think the film would have still been sufficiently different from everything else out there, and sufficiently thrilling and engrossing, that people would have taken notice. It would still have been a hit, although it's hard to say that it would have still been the kind of hit that 12 year olds would have gone to see twice a week for the entirety of the summer of 77. That kind of success requires such a perfect concoction of elements that I'm not sure any film other than ANH would have pulled off.

    But I think, all things considered, it would have done well enough to warrant sequels. People would have been shocked by Anakin's turn to the dark side, and then at some point later we would have gotten 4,5, and 6. They wouldn't have done as well. People would be complaining about the new cast, people would be dissapointed at the relatively small focus of the story, and people would probably the same things they say now, like "It's just not the same" and "This doesn't feel like Star Wars to me".

    Then again, you could argue, just as I argued about a TPM released in 1977, that an OT released after the PT would have been very, very different. Mostly, I think if the films had been made in chronological order, and hadnt been split up by a 16-year gap, the the saga would have a much more cohesive sense of style and tone. Everything would be different.
     
  8. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    TPM and the other Prequels couldn't be made at that time, not and be anything at all like what was intended. So, no, I don't think perceptions would be much different.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Adding a little to what Han Burgundy said...the prequels would have had to be more fun films and much less pretentious or Lucas would have never made enough money off of them to produce the originals.

    The fun aspects drew people into Star Wars, and the pretentiousness contributed to disappointment in the PT.
     
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  10. JoshieHewls

    JoshieHewls Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 16, 2013
    I wouldn't exactly use the term pretentious when discussing the prequels. A bit more on the serious and more morose side than the originals, yes. But pretentious? No.
     
  11. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    The PT would have to be more one-dimensional and light-hearted in order for them to be a success in 1977.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I'd absolutely call them pretentious. I posted this in another thread but it applies here: I think by the 90s, Lucas decided that making a fun movie was beneath his dignity and he needed to "grow" by making Haute Arte or something. So he tried to make a courtly love story with AOTC, an old-school Roman chariot race with a Chosen Slave Kid in TPM, and a tragic opera with ROTS.
     
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  13. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    I wouldn't call them pretentious simply because I don't think the PT ever takes itself so seriously. It's extremely earnest, I would say, in what it depicts and it can certainly be melodramatic. But I don't think pretentious is the right word. There's too much, well, silliness and cheese involved for it to be pretentious, in my opinion. Jar Jar, for example, is very much a comic character (with very little dignity) and even ROTS, which is a tragedy, has Lucas' trademark adorable robots and battledroids with silly voices. I still remember him in the commentary talking about R2's scenes and how he wanted a bigger explosion for when he set the battledroids on fire. I think he definitely thought a lot about what went into the films, but I don't see them as Oscar-bait films.
     
  14. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Nice post -- though I disagree that Jar Jar has "very little dignity". Of course, in Lucas' own words, he's a "funny"/"funnier" character than any that had existed previously, when TPM was being put into production, and he's clearly the focus or the butt of many visual gags and what else, but that doesn't mean he lacks an inner life or that his dignity is next to non-existent. Not in my book, anyway.

    anakinsfan is still right to an extent, though, I think. While there is plenty of colour, eccentricity, and light-heartedness in the PT, it is a more pretentious or weighty set of films to contend with, from the archness of the visual design, to the Wagnerian music, the heavy themes, the pronounced sense of foreboding, and the more self-conscious "THX"-driven mood to the OT's generally lighter, more effervescent "American Graffiti" atmosphere and styling.

    I'm a big PT fan, so I don't necessarily see this as a flaw, but the PT films are, in my estimation, bolder and a little intractable. I can see how there's an overbearing, self-serious aspect to the PT for some that is hard to ignore. *cough* Am I not a little hard to deal with at times? [face_whistling]

    I think it's a slight mischaracterization, though, to proclaim that Lucas felt that making a light film was "below his dignity". Oh, dear, what is it with this word, you guys? :p Like you say, PiettsHat, Lucas still wanted to have fun in ROTS, which is, indisputably, in many ways, the darkest/heaviest of the SW films. In the commentary track, I believe Lucas explicitly states that Artoo is his favourite SW character, even. The man must be very in-touch with his inner child to have made a set of movies like the Star Wars saga and seen it come to dominate much of his film-making life.

    I further object to the slur (and yes, to me, it reads like a slur) because it does a disservice to the flip-side of Lucas, in my opinion, given the broad range of films he was interested in as a young man and continued to be interested in through marriage, divorce, and raising kids. In a 1997 "New Yorker" article -- a really fascinating read -- Lucas matter-of-factly states that he could make a film like "Koyaanisqatsi", but not "Taxi Driver": a rather revealing hint of the sort of film art he continued to have deep affection for near to the completion of the OT ("Koyaanisqatsi" came out in 1982). I think he's always wanted to explore epic life themes in his cinematic art, and a film like "Koyaanisqatsi" perhaps gave him a real boost and also lent him a deeper appreciation for what it is possible to express in his chosen medium. In short, I don't think it's fair to damn the man for wanting to push the envelope, and not merely deliver another round of bickering kids chasing men in white plastic. One's art tends to change as one's sensibilities also change.

    The Beatles grew and most people wax rhapsodic about it to this very day. Why can't George Lucas?

    If you're making popular art, should you entirely stick to formula or push yourself and even bring a challenge to a viewer?


    * * *

    ANYWAY...

    The thread question is rather pointless (in my opinion). It's asking a non-sequitur.

    The prequels are what they are, in large part, because of when they are. The originals, too.

    In relation to art, history, politics, society, technology, and, of course, the biologic and psychic constitution of one George Walton Lucas -- PLUS every other person involved every which way but loose in their bringing to the screen.
     
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I do understand your point and yes, people change over the course of 15 years, including their art preferences.

    But I also think that people who grew up on the OT, expected a similar feel for the PT, and understandably wanted to know what the hell happened. I also think that it can be difficult to love the entire saga when the two trilogies have a drastically different feel. Without doing a poll I would think that people who prefer fun movies are not going to enjoy movies that one can dissect in film class for theme and tone and mood, and vice versa, with some exceptions.

    As far as fun moments in the PT, yes, they were there, the opening of ROTS being one of the best examples as much as I hated the rest of the movie.
     
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  16. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

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    Jan 1, 2011
    With Jar Jar, I was referring more to the fact that he's not a very dignified presence. He's not an austere, aged statesman, but I do think he has what might be (ironically) termed "human" dignity. It's just that his silliness means it isn't at the forefront of his character. But I agree that he is a well-rounded character and I think he has a nice arc, much as Han does in ANH.

    I just think "pretentious" isn't the right word. Pretentious implies, to me, elitism and exclusivity and I don't see the PT as trying to appeal to one group. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the intended meaning, but I think that the PT is very broad-strokes and shows huge cross-sections of life. I don't see why something like the pod race would be pretentious, for instance, any more than the bike-chase sequence in ROTJ.

    Oh, I do think you're right that the PT films have very serious moments. But I think that's reflective of life in general -- the absurd and profound can exist not only at the same time, but in accordance. To me, it seems like they are films that you can enjoy on a very superficial level -- for the action, the music, the battles, etc. But if you're interested in digging deeper, there's some depth there as well.

    Yeah, that was one of my favorite parts of the commentary -- when he named R2 his favorite character! There was a lot of enthusiasm in his voice and he sounded a bit put out that he didn't get the explosion he wanted. :p
     
  17. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 1, 2011
    See, I would actually say that the "feel" can't be perfectly separated by trilogy. I think that ESB, for instance, has a very similar tone (in many ways) to both AOTC and ROTS. And for TPM and ANH, there's a real innocence present in those films (along with the Ewok sections of ROTJ) that I don't think is infused as much in the other films. That…and I think that having the PT be different than the OT was important, otherwise, isn't it just a retread? One of the ways you can make the OT stand out even more is by contrasting it against the PT (and vice versa) and I think that's what Lucas was trying to do, given that the stories are so different.

    I don't think that movies that are fun are precluded from being dissectible. Similarly, I think those fun, happy moments in the PT and OT need those dark, savage moments to remind us to cherish them.
     
  18. Yanksfan

    Yanksfan Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2000
    Are you even daring to compare Sgt Pepper or Abbey Road to TPM or AOTC? Oh, dear sir, I cannot let that stand!!!
     
  19. Rowboatcop

    Rowboatcop Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 11, 2011
    I would have accepted WINGS OVER AMERICA.
     
  20. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2005
    In addition to, and in a bit of a reprise of, what PiettsHat just said, I don't see why you can't have both.

    Star Wars, in the main, is fun -- or, at least, I feel it's meant to be, and is.

    It's broad, colourful, extravagant, outrageous, silly, lively, loud, et-cet-era.

    A whole smorgasbord of clashing, bashing, thrashing fun.

    And a large part of the fun is, for me, because of those inviting tonal shifts, many of which the PT has either introduced or made a lot more pronounced.

    These contrasts arrive via character construction, lighting choices, plot developments, sound design, music, etc. It's very, very rich and I can barely get enough.

    And there is definitely plenty of wanton goof, too. In all six movies. And surely, soon, to be nine. Many shades and tones. It's kaleidoscopic and wondrous.

    Perhaps the fundamental issue is that you really can't enjoy Star Wars to the fullest unless you can get on-board with all the fun it offers and yet you must also possess a deep sense of thrill when you contemplate its panoply of themes, visual progressions, and its haunting meditations on people and the places and the psychological extremes of being human and alive in the universe.

    There is also this page on Susan Sontag I was reading (or re-reading) the other day:

    http://www.brainpickings.org/index....ontag-the-complete-rolling-stone-interview-1/

    I'm drawn especially to this part:

    We do set up a lot of false oppositions in life in this world of duality and the limited senses. Star Wars, in its multi-faceted, architectonic construction, almost begs for a more holistic approach.

    Oh, he's not a particularly dignified presence on a basic visual level (at least, not in the main), but neither is he a monochromatic comedy figure. And he's also not necessarily old or generally possessed of a calm, regal bearing, yet he does exude some sense of austerity and stateliness in ROTS, in my opinion. With Jar Jar, it sort of depends on which scene you're talking about, and which part of the narrative it's occurring within.

    And I'm still condemning the guy more than I should. It's more, I think, that Jar Jar's not classically dignified, or stoic. He doesn't fit nominal societal tropes about how one is "meant" to conduct themselves in the presence of others. But that doesn't mean he lacks dignity. It could mean he has more -- especially if he would rather fit in and is doing his best, by and large, to avoid trouble, extend respect, and attain an equilibrium with those around him.

    Sorry, but I'm quite defensive over Jar Jar. He's my favourite character.

    But yes, let's settle at "well-rounded". :)

    Well, your juxtaposing of the podrace with the speeder bike chase leads me to believe that a better word would probably be ... outsized, or baroque, or even ostentatious.

    The PT, in comparison to the OT, lays things on a bit thick -- which is kinda the point, I think, but I can see why others might find it off-putting.

    To work with your example, the bike-chase is just something that happens (in-universe). There's no real build-up to it or anything. It has more of a prosaic, quotidian aspect, like much of the OT in relation to the PT, in my opinion. The podrace, by contrast, is a huge event, presided over by none other than Jabba himself, thronged by thousands of people, involving dozens of drivers in fancy contraptions, a flag parade, complex maneuvers and race topography, epic musical heralds ... the whole orchestra feverishly cutting through Mozart (PT) versus a couple of guys playing the blues in a smoky bar (the OT). Alright, I've exaggerated the contrast a bit, but I think you get my meaning. :p

    "Some"??? :eek:

    My poor head. :p

    I like what you wrote there: a fitting epitaph for the series as a whole.

    Or life is like a box of chocolates... ;)

    These basic platitudes do contain a lot of truth where SW is concerned, I think.

    In the same track, it's also revealed that the Artoo-elevator shenanigans were almost cut!

    Lucas almost didn't get his way. For me, it's put a fresh spin on the rather silly notion that he only surrounded himself with "yes-men" when making the PT.

    The guy was prepared to jettison stuff that he personally liked. Only, of course, when you're George Lucas, you kind of can get your way in the end. :D


    I don't think I dared. I think I did. ;)

    And yes, yes, I am. :p

    What? They can't be compared?

    [​IMG]





    All roads lead to Rome. [face_clown]


    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  21. Yanksfan

    Yanksfan Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 3, 2000
    HA HA HA HA. Well played, Cryogenic. Well played.
     
  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    ROTS is The White Album without Obla-Di Obla-Da.
     
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  23. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Actually ROTS IS a bit like Abbey Rd, with all the songs on side B rolled into a super quick medley.
     
  24. CommanderDrenn

    CommanderDrenn Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 19, 2013
    Jar Jar would be even worse if he was created in the 70's. Bright colors are all we need for Jar Jar....
     
  25. only one kenobi

    only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Well...where to start?

    Bearing in mind the scope that Lucas had in mind originally, there has to be a recognition of what was possible for Lucas in 1976/77. Also, the story he originally set out to tell is different in many ways from the story we see in TPM (let alone what we see in ANH). But...let's play along and imagine that Lucas foresaw that, he wanted to tell the tale of how Anakin Skywalker became evil Darth Vader (though quite what emotional response that would garner from a public unaware of who Darth Vader is is another question - or indeed why Lucas would feel the need to project a 'good man' image onto this as yet non-existant villainous icon ). So, actually what we would have would be an outline of a story in which Lucas wanted to subvert the original young hero into a villain half way through a projected six movie series (I'm playing along).

    However, Lucas doesn't know if this movie will be a success so...he has to make a self-contained story that can be left open ended enough that sequels can be made. he is under pressure, financially, to makwe this movie as it is not his own money. So...he looks around for a story that he thinks might fit the bill..and plumps for The Hidden Fortress.

    Look..I was going to go on a long explanation as to why, for various reasons (financial, technical etc) whatever space based story Lucas might have had in mind to begin with would end up remarkably similar to ANH. But I don't think it necessary to go through every detail (why it makes more sense to have the ultimate conflict resolve to a special effects fighter vs larger dangerous behemoth (ie the Death Star) because a huge land battle is out of the question both technically - if it were CGI droids - or financially - if it were men in oufits)

    But the main sticking point is...the motivation for 'the saga of Anakin Skywalker' is the dichotomy of the iconic villain Darth Vader and the broken man at the end of ROTJ - and that idea evolved through the original series. There could be no urge to tell the story of how Anakin became Darth vader because the iconic concept Darth Vader was yet to be realised, and his broken, pathetic alter-ego even further from realisation.

    One might as well ask, what if the electric guitar came before the acoustic, or what if Rome had come before the Greek civilisation. They are derivative, the later form could not have come about without the earlier.
     
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