PT What if the titles of the prequels are foreshadowing the events of ROTS.

Hey, I just thought of this theory about the titles of the prequels. You know how many fans say the title of AOTC doesn't make any sense. Well, I've been thinking, what if the title was referring to what happens in ROTS. While it's most likely that Lucas didn't plan this, it's rather interesting to think that the titles for each film foreshadows the events of ROTS; namely Palpatine revealing himself as a Sith Lord (The Phantom Menace), the clones attacking and slaughtering the Jedi (Attack Of The Clones), and, of course, the Sith getting their revenge on the Jedi (Revenge Of The Sith). What do you guys think?

 

Yes the titles all are reasoned out in the story. First the Sith Menace, then the Clones created by the Sith then the Revenge of the Sith.

 

Not really. I mean, there are clones in the movie. And they do attack quite a bit. And it's one hell of a cool title that effects some intrigue. Sounds just like some cheesy 50s sci-fi that inspired SW

I can see how your interpretation falls into place. Certainly not intended, but at the same time, a lot of the things fans find as symbolism or some general deeper meaning likely don't mean much. Authorial intent be damned!

 

"What if"?

 

Episode One's title definitely stands out as the one that doesn't really make sense. A phantom menace would be an enemy or a threat that you take on but which doesn't actually exist. The Trade Federation and their desire to conquer and subjugate Naboo is real. So is the Sith Lord who has stoked their boldness and which the Jedi become aware of over the course of the fiilm. Neither of these turn out to be not real in the end.

It sounds cool though.

 

a : something apparent to sense but with no substantial existence : apparition
b : something elusive or visionary
c : an object of continual dread or abhorrence

• the phantom of disease and want

Fits well with the events and themes of the films, imo. Sidious is elusive, and a source of dread and abhorrence. And the seeds of a dark future and potential in Anakin are there as well.

 

And they both first appear as holographic apparitions materializing from out of the void:

 

Holgorams appear in all the movies and are not treated as phantoms or apparitions. And there are always enemies in every movie. So, The Phantom Menace could be the title to any one of the 8 movies so far on those terms. The point of the episode titles is that they indicate some key distinction regarding that particular movie.

 

It really depends on your willingness to accept Lucas’ definition of the word “phantom”. If it is to mean an ominous presence that you are aware exists but cannot fully comprehend, which I think is what Lucas was going for, then it makes perfect sense and aptly describes the film’s place in the trilogy. But if you’re committed to some other definition then you probably won’t appreciate it.

 

I don't think that Lucas has a different definition of the word phantom from everyone else or at least, the people who are supposed to discern the meaning of the title in relation to the movie it's attached to.

Phantom used as an adjective means that the object isn't substantially there. e.g. Phantom pain/limb syndrome, phantom pregnancy, phantom power. If it made any real sense to the story then the movie would be about the heroes fighting something that turns out to be unreal or not there in the first place. It sounds cool but isn't really applicable to what the film is about - The trade federation attacking Naboo at prompting of the Sith. Neither of those things are illusory. Only Palpatine's subterfuge as galactic senator is an illusion. And since the movie is not making the characters or the audience aware of that "phantom" quality at this time (we don't even know that the Sith also influences the senate as well as the TF), the title itself is illusory of what the film is about. The film is about the Jedi becoming aware of a Sith Lord's puppeteer of the TF's transgressions. In short. The title is like a private joke shared only with people who knew what was up the second McDiarmid's Senator Palpatine showed up on screen, even though the whole trilogy is constructed as if that twist supposed to be a revelation to everyone by the end of ROTS.

 

I didn't say anything about holograms in my post.

 

Ok then. So you agree there are not phantoms in TPM.

 

Lol a "phantom pain" is still an actual, experienced pain whether it is imagined or not. It's not "substantially not there", it actually is there. And Palpatine's presence is not an inside joke unless you simply hate TPM and can't take it seriously (which is fine, there's certainly no law against it). Half the audience already knows who he is, because they are familiar with SW, and everyone else can piece together that he is Darth Sidious fairly easily. It's not like the movie tries to make it mysterious, it's obvious even to children.

 

A perception of something does not guarantee that it is physically real. People perceiving phantom pain from stimulation that doesn't exist because it cannot exist. It's an illusion that there is pain in your hand because your hand is not there.

Palpatine's identity, and the allusion to it in Ep 1's title, is an inside joke with everyone who is familiar with Return Of The Jedi, and Ian McDiarmid. I'm consistently told on here that this is just a drawback of the release order that people cling to and that the proper viewing order makes Palpatine an amazing revelation for the audience in ROTS.

 

"Phantom Pain" is actual experienced pain, the fact that it comes not from your absent limb but but from your mind does not make illusory. Likewise, the phantom menace is an actual ongoing conspiracy.

And irregardless of what order you watch the movies in, it's obvious to any attentive viewer that Palpatine and Sidious are the same character. It's not a mystery box or an unresolved plotline, Lucas makes it very clear by the end of the film, and deliberately.

 

So if you perceive something that makes it real? You can't feel pain when there's no physical stimulation. Your brain tricks you into perceiving it instead.

 

Phantom pain is real pain. The phantom menace is a real Sith conspiracy. "Phantom" does not mean "fake" in this context.

 

The point is made right away:

OBI-WAN : I have a bad feeling about this.
QUI-GON : I don't sense anything.
OBI-WAN : It's not about the mission, Master, it's
something...elsewhere...elusive.
QUI-GON : Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration
here and now where it belongs.
OBI-WAN : Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future...
QUI-GON : .....but not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the
living Force, my young Padawan.

The Elusive Menace doesn't quite have the same ring and a Phantom is "a spirit of a dead person believed by some to visit the living as a pale, almost transparent form of a person."

The Sith are dead as far as the Jedi know.

 

Elusive and illusory are not the same thing.

At no point is the concept of a ghost of the extinct Sith even suggested by anyone or anything in the movie.

If we indulge that misappropriation of "Phantom" here, we still get people experiencing "real" menace from something that doesn't exist. There's no menace provided in the film by anything that doesn't physically exist.

 

Yet Sidious/the Sith are both in TPM.

That's a metaphor. We have a phantom who is a menace, elusive, a ghost of the Sith etc etc.

They don't know the Sith have really returned until the end of the movie. Until then there is a menace going on with no substance they can attach it to. All the moves of the Trade Federation make no sense because they wouldn't do the invasion of Naboo without something else going on.

 

What's your point? They aren't illusions.

It only really works as a broadly spooky way of describing the dark side.

 

We could argue about the semantics of Star Wars titles all day. The Force Awakens: well the Force can't awaken because the Force can't substantively sleep, so it doesn't make sense. Return of the Jedi: the Jedi can't return if they were never totally gone! Etc. I don't think this is productive.

As for the foreshadowing thing, I think it's mostly coincidence.

 

Well, I did say it's obvious that Lucas didn't plan this.

 

We are talking about prequel trilogy titles and prequel trilogy films though.

What exactly are we supposed to produce? The OP posted a position and it's produced a discussion where people have different points of view.

 

I always thought it meant simply a ‘looming, foreboding presence’ that they couldn’t quite place. Attack of the Clones was pretty literal in its title and Revenge of the Sith was all the pieces the Sith had placed in the last two movies finally springing to action.