What If: Yoda vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan vs. Sidious

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by hansolo_23, Jul 11, 2005.

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  1. TopSpeeD Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 2
    I strongly believe Obi-Wan would beat Sidious..i dont know why
  2. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Sidious is overhyped. Obi-Wan would fair much better against him than either Mace or Yoda did. Obi-Wan's saber ability is easily greater than Mace's, the only area Obi-Wan would struggle against Sidious is force ability, and there is no end as we have seen to Obi-Wan's resourcefulness and capacity to overcome impossible odds. If Obi-Wan can beat Darth Vader, he can most certainly challenge Sidious. Darth Sidious wishes he could wield a lightsaber like Vader did on Mustafar against Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan took that Sith Vader hype and threw it back into Lord Taters face.


    As far as Dooku, big deal. Get over it. People that constantly cry about Dooku beating Obi-Wan are missing the whole point. Are you suggesting Dooku was greater than Vader?? Hardly. That's laughable.
    Obi-Wan waxed TWO of Sidious' Sith Lords, but how conviently people forget that right?

    I see NO evidence Dooku was greater than Obi-Wan. Do you think Obi-Wan is incapable of a Force push?? Yoda threw Sidious' azz all the way across the room with a Force push. Sidious didn't hit his head on a metal rail knocking him unconscious as it did Obi-Wan. See how simple it is? Some people are just mad Obi-Wan flushed Vader.

    Obi-Wan beat General Grievous, Darth Maul, and Darth VADER. Count Dooku isn't **** compared to Vader on Mustafar or even crippled suited Vader years later.

    As far as Yoda's statement to Obi-Wan, that was the whole point, Yoda was overconfident and for all his talk didn't fair any better. Yoda was humbled in that movie. A direct power comparison between characters isn't possible in the face of the prophecy. Sidious had to be defeated not by direct confrontation or combat, but by betrayal from within. His OWN overconfidence was his downfall. That is the theme in Star Wars films. You beat an enemy not by fighting them but by NOT fighting.

    Obi-Wan may not be able to best Sidious but he sure as hell wouldn't fair any worse than Mace or Yoda did.
  3. darkscout36 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005
    star 1
    Sidious is overhyped. Obi-Wan would fair much better against him than either Mace or Yoda did. Obi-Wan's saber ability is easily greater than Mace's, the only area Obi-Wan would struggle against Sidious is force ability, and there is no end as we have seen to Obi-Wan's resourcefulness and capacity to overcome impossible odds. If Obi-Wan can beat Darth Vader, he can most certainly challenge Sidious. Darth Sidious wishes he could wield a lightsaber like Vader did on Mustafar against Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan took that Sith Vader hype and threw it back into Lord Taters face.

    I doubt its far greater than Mace. Remember they both have different saber forms. Obi-wan lasts that long against Anakin because Obi-wan uses a defensive-type saber form while anakin unleashes his offensive onslaught saber form.

    I think Yoda knew Obi-wan was the only one who could fight and probably beat Vader. I remembered the other day in AOTC, Obi-wan said "His abilities have made him, arrogant". I realized that quote in AOTC foreshadowed his demise. So because Obi-wan was his master, he knew every thing about Anakin, and his weaknesses and the dark side's weaknesses, having faced a lot of sith lords in his life.

    Also remember Sidious tried to avoid lightsaber combat with Yoda. 1st, he tries to escape, then yoda blocks the door, then they duel. Then, Sidious not wanting to continue lightsaber combat takes the high ground in the senate chamber room, and unleashes throwing pods at Yoda. When yoda gets to challenge him on equal ground he just unleashes his force lightning. I disagree with Sidious being THAT Great of a duelist but I still think his force mastery could defeat Obi-wan.
  4. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    1. Sidious hasn't ignited a saber in who knows how long, Obi has used his more than a toothbrush.
    2. Obi has more experience with the Sith than any Jedi alive, I think, other than Anakin, Obi was the only Jedi who could've nearly beaten Sidious.
    3. If Obi can "beat" Anakin, the Chosen One I think he can beat Sidious.



    1- sidious did ignited a lightsaber,in a very cool scene where he kills 3 jedi masters in 5 serconds.
    2- obi wan had experience but with weak siths,i mean maul ?!?,when he fights a normal or powerfull sith (dooku) he is owned in seconds,and dooku is not even half as strong as sidious or he wouldnt be his aprenttice.
    3-obi beated anakin,but anakin was an arrogant boy on his early twenties,he obviously wasnt on his full potential yet,give him a few more years and no one could have beaten him(and is not only my opinion,it happens to be lucas opinion as well.)



    ps: dont take this in a disrespectfull way im just trying to agree or disagree with some people(after all,thats what a forum is about)

    peace[face_peace]
  5. -maynard- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 3
    even though he's my favorite character, i dont think Kenobi has much of a chance against Sidious
  6. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Obi-Wan beat General Grievous, Darth Maul, and Darth VADER. Count Dooku isn't **** compared to Vader on Mustafar or even crippled suited Vader years later.

    i agree with one thing,dooku is no match for vader,not even for crippled 40 years old vader,but you have to admit that the fact that he simply and unrefutable is no match for dooku,i agree that obi not being able to beat dooku doesnt mean much but you also have to remember that in AOTC he wasnt owned by a force push,he was own by dooku's abilities fair and square and palpatine is way more powerfull than dooku. vader wasnt all that strong in mustafar either ,if obi wan had beaten an unsuited 30 years old vader i say "wow ,he is the best" but he only beated an arrogant boy,and thats the difference,when he faces a calm foe as dooku,he loses,thats why everybody brings the dooku example up,because anakin and vader always had liquid fire for blood( too much anger and hate are bad even for a sith if they cloud his good judgement) and also he had an arrogance that dooku never showed.
  7. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    yeah i got mad love for kenobi too, but sending him off to fight sidious is like directly sacrificing him IMO.....it makes no sense

    sidious is top tier....only mace and yoda can even entertain the notion of winning
  8. Carnotaur3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2004
    star 3
    Wow, this is actually a question that could not be answered.

    Surely you guys know that because Daniel was so small, did not mean that he could not defeat Goliath, who was a trained soldier and about 9 feet tall at the time? That's also not to say that because there's a much greater force power to Sidious that that meant Yoda could never beat him.

    Every fight depends on focus, observation of the room around you, and the advantages and disadvantages of the persons fighting. As seen in Episode III, even a prophicied ONE, who was alot more in tune to the force, could not beat Obi-Wan at the time... why? Because of his emotional mood at the time. Had he paid more attention to the advantages of Obi-Wan in this location, in this mood, in this confidence that was not exactly overexposed in his head as Anakin's was, he could have killed Obi-Wan in a flash... not too mention, fighting on a lava planet has alot more danger lurking than say Naboo.

    You loose focus if you come into a mindset where your invincible.

    Though Palpatine had this, he was also a very huge intimidation to Yoda, who probably had focus, but lost it after he kept getting tumbled around the Senate room, not to mention Clone Troopers coming to the rescue for Palpatine.... his chance was lost.

    Mace Windu, though cocky, actually focused alot to bring Palpatine down. It was only when he was about to destroy the Emperor when he did not foresee Anakin coming. He lost focus. He trusted Anakin instead of trusting his feelings like he had done before, but he told Anakin he would because, afterall, he was right in that Palpatine was a Sith Lord.

    So, you see, the question can't be truly answered in these reverse battles. They depended greatly on how these characters were that day.
  9. -maynard- Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2005
    star 3
    uh...i think you mean David vs. Goliath...

    anyway, i'll take Yoda's word over anyone else's. He told Obi-Wan he couldn't beat him. thats all i need
  10. jag29 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 3
    Obi-wan would have held his ground at least for a while. He wouldn't have been surprised by Sidious Lightning. He would have known that since Dooku used force lightning that his master would use it too.

    Where he would have failed was him not lasting long enough to wear down Sidious. Sidious' skills with a lightsaber would have been too much for Obi-wan in the end.

    The confrontation wouldn't have been as short as say Kit Fisto but it wouldn't have been that long either.

    Yoda would have beaten Anakin. Anakin would have put a great battle but Yoda's experience and knowledge of the force would have been too much for him. Also Yoda wouldn't have had the mental baggage as Ben did against Anakin.

    Jag29
  11. Clone_Commander169 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2005
    star 4
  12. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    then again anakin wouldn't have had the mental baggage he had facing kenobi......
  13. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    dooku is very close in terms of power when comparing him with the suited vader. GL has said as much. dooku would defat vader in the suit. lightning. obi wan is dead against sidious, period. GL has said as much.
  14. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Comparing Obi fricking Wan Kenobi to the Jedi-Masters that Mace Windu brought to confront Palps, is a bit like comparing Captain James T. Kirk with the red shirted death of the week security guards he brought to X planet of the week. It just ain't happening.


    I mean here you have a case of "Hi, I'm Obi-Wan Kenobi, one of the last two Jedi in the universe. I defeated the first Sith Lord in 1000 years as a Padawan, got assigned the task of training the chosen one the same day I achieved Knight status, uncovered the crucial plot mysteries the Sith were enacting, defeated a 4 armed, 4 saber wielding mechanical monstrosity, maimed the Chosen one and prevented him from reaching his ultimate power and taking over the universe, completely threw a monkey wrench in Palpatines plans at every oppurtunity, and set the Chosen ones son on a journey that would redeem him."

    vs.

    "Hi, Im Jedi-Master whog ives a ratsa ss. They make an action figure of me. I'm special."


    heh heh. Apples and oranges.
  15. jedi_prime Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2005
    star 2
    I will say this:

    As for Yoda vs. Vader: I have little doubt that Yoda would have handed the fledgling Sith Lord vital portions of his anatomy on a platter. Additionally, I think Yoda might have been more likely to actually give Vader that little nudge into the lava before he landed on the bank.

    Obi Wan vs. Sidious: This is a tough call. Sidious is incredibly powerful and dangerous. More than that, he is a very intelligent combatant, who has shown himself adaptable and able to take advantage of numerous situations. Personally, I believe that Obi Wan is the embodiment of all that is Jedi, that is to say that he is always heeding the Will of the Force, and has no ego about it in the slightest.

    He did lose to Dooku in AotC, but he was still rather inexperienced, and three solid years of war had honed his abilities considerably. He achieved a seat on the Council, and was widely revered as one of the most wise and powerful Jedi to ever grace the Order. He was THE go to guy when something absolutely had to be accomplished. Not Windu, not Yoda. Obi Wan Kenobi. The everyman Jedi that all the other Masters pointed to as an exemplar of what a Jedi should be. Sure, he wasn't as flashy as Mace, as headstrong as Anakin or as wise as Yoda, but I have no doubt that he could have at least posed a challenge to Sidious. Not that I am downplaying Sidious' abilities, but Obi Wan was quite an impressive Force user in his own right. Dooku took great pains to try to incapacitate Obi Wan because he considered him to be the greater threat, even though Anakin was probably more powerful. Similarly, Obi Wan was able to meet Grievous in the midst of thousands of battle droids and magna droids and he emerged unscathed (well, he did get a bruised shin, I guess). After that, he managed to evade the clones and safely escape, something that was only matched by Yoda.

    I recall a GL quote regarding Obi Wan, stating that Obi Wan would be showcased in Ep. III, and that we would get a better idea of his true potential. I think we did. Whether that means he could defeat Sidious is another question entirely. Sidious is only human, and if the circumstance are right, Obi Wan could get a lucky break. On the other hand, Sidious would most likely win most of the encounters.

    Where I really run into a dilemma is the idea that Obi Wan is a servant of the Force. How could he lose if that were the case? He was perfectly attuned to the Force, which enabled him to do all of the things he did, including defeating Vader. Hell, even all those years later he was holding his own with Vader on the Death Star, and nobody can challenge Vader's abilities then. Obi Wan didn't get killed, he gave himself up to the Force before Vader's saber even made contact...

    So...final analysis: I have no idea, but I would dearly love to see the duel between the two.
  16. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    I do agree they should've both went to take one down at a time, but Obi Wan would've been toast regardless of Yoda was there or not.You saw how easy Master Fitso,Plo and the other one [can't really remember the name]went down!

    As for Yoda going after Anakin, he'd be so consumed in the darkside he'd believe he would be able to take him on. Anakin would lose of course, because no matter how powerful he is he just didn't know how to use it at the time, and he was an emotional wreck. Though if they were to fight a few years after,Anakin would merk him.
  17. darth-radical Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2003
    star 1
    i hope someone reads this because i think it is a valid point, i also hope no one wrote this alerady because i didnt read ALL the replies.

    Now, everyone is basing the reasoning of Obi-wan vs Vader and Yoda vs Sidious on fighting ability, and knowledge of the force. i really dont think this is the case. i think Yoda knew that Sidious could manipulate Obi-wan and try to turn him as well. Sidious i am sure has no chance of turning Yoda. Also, Yoda may have hoped that Obi-wan could "talk" Vader out of it. Luke managed to do so. does anyone think that sidious was really that impressive as a fighter? i dont. Even with 1000 flips Yoda couldnt beat Dooku, but Anakin easily over powered him in round 2.

    This is getting a little long, but i really dont think that Yoda would have had an easy time with Anakin, i think Anakin would have won over Yoda.

    One more quick comment that is a little off tipic, but anyone saying that Obi-wan beat Darth Maul is a fool. Darth Maul is the best lightsaber fighter out there, he wasnt "strong" with his force ability but he was hands down the best fighter. A double sided blade would be nearly IMPOSSIBLE to use. And all Maul had to do was poke obi-wan with his saber (or cut of his hand like Lucas did in all the movies except EPI) and Maul wins.
  18. COMMANDER76 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 4
    i'm not so sure anakin would lose to yoda on mustafar....i mean given the terrain its safe to assume that force powers of any magnitude were going to be void........so it comes down to lightsabers only pretty much.

    two level 9's going at it for the galaxy....and IMO yoda would bear more emotional baggage than anakin in this encounter considering he would feel solely responsible for the entire situation.
    you see anakin loved kenobi....and that costs him dearly, but he has no such hang-ups with yoda or mace IMO.
  19. Force-Keeper Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2004
    star 5
    Two things, darth-radical:

    1) I don't think Obi-Wan would find himself open to manipulation from Palpatine, and Yoda probably knew that. Obi-Wan wouldn't be confused like Anakin was, he'd have a game plan (to kill The Sith) and he'd stick to it. He knows the Sith are capable of no good whatsoever, unlike Anakin. Also, fighting ability and knowledge of the Force was a prime reason in Yoda's decision to not have Obi-Wan go after Palpatine.

    2) This is just my opinion, but Yoda would've killed Anakin in no time if he were to go to Mustafar. Yoda wouldn?t hesitate to strike down Anakin, and wouldn't tell Anakin to not do something that might get him killed like Obi-Wan did. Because of Obi-Wan's feelings and friendship for Anakin, he couldn't really bring himself to kill Anakin until Anakin made that very big mistake by jumping. Yoda didn't have the feelings for Anakin that Obi-Wan had, and he wouldn?t have a problem killing Anakin the first chance he got.
  20. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Yoda didn't have the feelings for Anakin that Obi-Wan had, and he wouldn?t have a problem killing Anakin the first chance he got.

    Obi Wan struck down Anakin the first chance he had. He fought to a draw throughout the
    entire fight and then he exploited Anakin's weakness and arrogance, striking him down.
    Obi Wan had no better, and would have had no other, opportunity.

    Obi Wan did put his feelings for Anakin aside. The moment he said "I will do what I must"
    and drew his saber, his emotions were under control. When the duel was over, Obi Wan
    let his emotions lead him. He spoke then from the heart. And then he departed, thinking
    Anakin dead.

  21. darth-radical Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2003
    star 1
    remember in basically all of the movies when they say "never underestimate the power of the darkside"? EVERYONE is open to manipulation, especially a Jedi who is to KILL. Killing is not the jedi way. A jedi with a mindset of kill is much easier to manipulate. Just like how every word out of Palpatines mouth in ROTJ is kill me, kill your dad etc. Yoda is powerful, powerful enough to withstand anything that Palps can say. The dark side is all about manipulation, Obi-wan is not that strong, not strong enought to withstand a sith masters manipulation. Otherwise the movies would say more like "dont underestimate the siths abilities with a lightsaber".
  22. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    One more quick comment that is a little off tipic, but anyone saying that Obi-wan beat Darth Maul is a fool. Darth Maul is the best lightsaber fighter out there, he wasnt "strong" with his force ability but he was hands down the best fighter. A double sided blade would be nearly IMPOSSIBLE to use. And all Maul had to do was poke obi-wan with his saber (or cut of his hand like Lucas did in all the movies except EPI) and Maul wins.

    I'm not sure what sort of rhetorical hyperbole this is supposed to be but, out of curiosity did you happen to see Episode I: The Phantom Menace?

    Obi-Wan utterly disrespected the much heralded double ended lightsaber then had Maul literally running from him. He pushed Maul all the way back against the laser shield wall before Maul, like Dooku, had to use a Force throw to get Obi-Wan away from him. I seriously suggest watching that fight again. After the laser shield dropped Obi-Wan was ALL OVER Darth Maul like stink on ****. He overwhelmed Darth Maul completely. Darth Maul even round kicked Obi-Wan to try to break his momentum and Obi-Wan used the momentum of the kick to backflip right back into the fight. Obi-Wan completely set the pace of that latter part of the duel once Qui-Gon fell.


    And Obi-Wan at this point, was a PADAWAN.


    You want to talk about hard, I dare say fighting an opponent with FOUR blades coming at you simultaneously is the worst scenario imagineable. You have one blade, this guy has Four. After an opponent such as that, nothing anyone can throw at Obi-Wan makes him sweat.
  23. Revin Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Okay seriously anyone saying Obi-Wan would have a snowballs chance in hell against Sids is a fanboy and that's that. Consider for a moment that in the entire PT, Obi-Wan NEVER won a straight up fight, either losing or fighting to a stalemate and then having to resort to dumb luck/good sense depending on your Point of view every single time. Look at his history.

    1. VS Darth Maul - Lost the duel straight up as Maul had him by the balls disarmed and holding on for dear life. If Qui-Gon had not been there (to drop his light saber) Obi-Wan would have been toast
    2. VS Count Dooku 1 - Lost to him quickly and decisively, had Anakin not been there Dooku would have killed him
    3. VS Count Dooku 2 - Again lost to Count Dooku, had he been there alone he would have been killed easily
    4. VS General Grevious - Lost the fight and was again holding on for his life, luckily his dumb luck again saved his ass again as a blaster happened to be right next to him when he needed it
    5. VS Darth Vader - Was on the defensive the entire duel and had the whole high-ground thing never happened or had Anakin handled it in a smarter way, he would have soon been killed (as shown in the Episode 3 video game)

    So there you have it, every single time Obi-Wan "won" a duel in the PT, it was as a result of cheap shotting his opponent who either had him beaten (Maul, Grevious) or would soon have him beaten (Anakin). The only way Obi-Wan would have a chance against Sids would be if he pulled one of his usual lucky wins by some alternate means such as dropping a senate pod on his head, throwing some water at him while using force lightning, kicking him in the balls really hard, whatever. In a straight up fight Obi-Wan would get owned even quicker than his fights against Dooku which were over pitifully fast as is.
  24. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Sheer unadulterated, unsubstantiated, vitriolic hyperbole.

    And IF the dog hadn't of stopped to take a **** he would have caught the rabbit.


    Sounds like a purely Sith/Sidious fan to me, biased in every concievable way. That entire post has no more basis in fact or reflects on the films than the man on the moon.

    What's good for the goose is good for the gander don't you think?

    I seem to recall Obi-Wan having Maul and Vader, as well as a recently HANDless Grievous laying flat on their BACK. And you speak of blind luck??

    Well that's even better then. If Obi-Wan wins by LUCK, then he is the luckiest SOB in the entire universe, and would clearly BEAT Sidious out of sheer luck right?


    Tools belong in the shed.



  25. Revin Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2005
    I really wouldn't consider myself a Sith/Sidious fan at all as I love all the characters in the SW saga and Obi-Wan is one of my favorites. The only thing I didn't like about Obi-Wan in the PT is the way he won his fights as stated above. I don't recall Obi-Wan ever "having Maul and Vader." As I remember, Maul had Obi-Wan beaten hanging on for his life and Vader had Obi-Wan on the defensive the entire fight and it is known that he would have won had he not made his near fatal error regarding the high-ground. I also remember the handless Grievous beating Obi to a bloody pulp afterwards and having him hanging weaponless with Grievous homing in for the kill. Granted you are correct that Obi-Wan was always the last one standing, and I am not refuting that point, I'm merely stating that every time he won it was because of a wild card (an extra light sabre nearby after he lost his, a blaster nearby when both combatants were fighting hand to hand, an area of easily defendable high-ground when he was falling back). The fact remains that Obi-Wan never won a straight up duel in the PT, whether you call it blind luck or taking advantage of the situation, and given a fair fight against Sidious he would be beaten faster than both the times that he lost to Dooku. I would really like it if you pointed out which part of my post is "Sheer unadulterated, unsubstantiated, vitriolic hyperbole," because it is all fact as far as I can tell.
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