What If: Yoda vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan vs. Sidious

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by hansolo_23, Jul 11, 2005.

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  1. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    NOW you are finally beginning to understand Lord Flies! [face_dancing]


    Being a Kenobite is a state of mind. It's an essence. The essence of smug arrogance. Obi-Wan Kenobi is the James T. Kirk of Star Wars.
    Ballsy. Brash. Doesn't sweat anything. Or anyone. In any given situation or circumstance in life, you have to think to yourself, what would Obi-Wan do? How would he handle it? And the answer is simple, you smirk, crack a one-liner, and go to work.


    Say it three times now so it encodes.

    Smirk, one-liner, go to work.


    See?

    Expect your brown turtleneck delivered UPS in the next 3 or 4 weeks.
  2. jedi_prime Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2005
    star 2
    First, I commend you on your use of a quote from Mirutomo Musashi, though credit wasn't given.

    Second, the Jedi should and do love everyone, yes, even Palpatine. That doesn't mean they are not required to resist evil. Their solemn duty is to combat evil and injustice, to promote peace and to guard it from any threats. It is a sad truth that sometimes peace can only come about through war, but that is the case, even for Jedi.

    As I see it, the Throne Room scene on the DSII in RotJ has four distinct parts:
    I. The Temptation: Sidious is taunting Luke and showing him how helpless he is. He is baiting Luke to act in rage and anger. This portion's climax ends when Luke snatches his saber from Sidious' throne.
    II. The Gathering Storm: Luke has given in to his anger, and engages Vader. The two exchange blows, Luke kicks Vader down the stairs. Luke has a moment to think, and regains his composure, but Vader unleashes an assault, causing Luke to flee in order to avoid fighting his father.
    III. The Conflict Within: Luke is attempting to reason with Vader, as the Sith stalks him in the infrastructure within the Throne Room. Vader continues to try various things to flush Luke out, and Luke's emotions are revealed, as is the knowledge of his sister's existence. The threat that she would have to face the same torment and tribulations Luke had already survived was very real. In order to protect his sister, he was forced into action, even though he didn't want to fight Vader himself. He realized that it was solely *his* responsibility, and that a failure to act would be worse than acting. Vader is beaten back and Luke removes his hand.
    IV. Redemption: Luke throws down his lightsaber (something Obi Wan would obviously frown upon), and turns on the Emperor. Sidious mocks Luke and begins blasting him with Force Lightning. That Luke failed to defend himself was a mistake, from a Jedi perspective. It was his duty to protect his sister, the Rebellion and the galaxy as a whole from the menace of the Sith. From a personal, and, it should be noted, emotional, perspective, Luke felt he had won, that he was a Jedi and that would be sufficient. Vader, seeing his son being killed, took action and destroyed Sidious.

    Of course, I will admit that I have always been of the opinion that Vader would have stepped in, even if Luke had defended himself against Sidious.
  3. DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2001
    star 4
    Well I always thought Vader was listening to what the Emperor was saying to Luke, as much of what he says applied to Anakin as a teenager.

    "Young fool only now at the end do you understand."-Anakin doesn't realize what the Emperor is intill this moment.

    "Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the darkside" -Anakin believed his powers were not strong enough as a jedi.

    "You will pay the price for you lack of vision" -Anakin could not see that his path down the darkside would lead to padmes death.

    "And now. Young skywalker. You will die." - Which ironiclly Anakin does die.
  4. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Pacifism invites someone walking over you in practical reality but, it isn't my position, it's Lucas'. At least according to the Making of Revenge book. The films essentially took a 5 film, 30 year detour from the way events should have played out. The throne room scene was simply the culmination of The Forces' intentions and will.

    Hindsight always being 20/20, what should have happened was, when Obi-Wan first percieved some greater threat emmerging on the universal scene,(at the very beginning of TPM) instead of being chastised by Qui-Gon for his intuitive perception in the Unifying Force, he should have been catered to, and assisted in probing the meaning and developing the impression further. Perhaps then Palpatine could have been stopped before he was a great threat and danger to the Galaxy.
  5. DarthJuggalo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2005
    star 3
    In that respect Josh. The Jedi council should have catered to Anakin's ideals about love and what he thought was right instead of just brushing him off as a little nieve headstrong and rebelious padawan. He is the chosen one for christ sakes! If they would have maybe the galaxy would've been saved from the darkness.
  6. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Not if Anakin turning to the Darkside and the Jedi being decimated were a part of the overall package, which is becoming an increasingly feasible and appropriately ironic notion.
    The Force seems to have simply decided to clean house. Both Jedi, and Sith. Leaving nothing at the end but Luke, and harmony finally. No more wars, battles, manipulations, etc etc. I think the Force simply got tired of it.
  7. fistofthedarklord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 12, 2005
    star 3
    I've been writing a fan fiction on this if anybody's interested. Its in my link. Just check da link and dere you go!
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Who says that the Force created Anakin? According to Lucas, it might have been Darth Sidious who did it. As it is, Anakin's destiny was to kill the Sith to bring balance. The Jedi weren't meant to be wiped out. They were because of bad choices Anakin made.
  9. whostheBossk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2002
    star 4
    I would say as crazy as it sounded before, after reflecting on
    everything, I would say Yoda could have lessen the hate Anakin had
    Obi-wan, while Sidious would have had his hands full with Obi-wan.
    I think fate has it's way in both cases, but it is fun to venture
    on this subject thinking about what differences would take place.

    Boss's is back
  10. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    heyya fistofthedarklord, i will check out that fanfiction. but i think, no matter how angry anakin got, he would *never* think he could defeat yoda. (even anakin knew he would need a few years to challenge yoda legitimately)
  11. Obi-2_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2004
    star 1
    From the looks of yoda vs. dooku and ankin vs. dooku(2), i would say yoda and anakin are about equal in combat. Plus Obi-wan survived anakin's most vicious onslaught ever and then beat him, adding to the ist of seemingly stronger opponents he has beaten. I think he could at least hang with sidious.
  12. ticopuma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2005
    star 5
    Yoda would have killed Anakin in about 4 minutes

    Sidious would have beaten Obi Wan in about 2 minutes

    Yoda vs. Sidious

    Stalemate

    [face_plain]
  13. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    I think Obi-Wan would have lasted 10 seconds with Sidious because he didn't even last 30 seconds against Dooku. Anakin vs. Yoda would have been interesting. I believe Anakin would have struggle against Yoda, much like Luke struggled against Vader in ESB. But having just beat Dooku, and seeing that Yoda and Dooku had fough to a stand still, I could imagine Anakin pulling out a victory, with Yoda retreating.
  14. kyoshiro-kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2003
    I honestly believe that Obi-Wan could have and would have conquered Sidious. He was flat-out the more skilled with a lightsaber. I don't think he would've have gone in as cocky as Yoda, and wouldn't have been caught off-guard with the Sith lightning. I think he could have kept the fight contained in Sidious' chambers, limited to lightsabers. That being the case, he wins.

    However, Sidious getting into the Senate chambers changes things- he gets enough distance between him and Obi-Wan to start raining pods down on him all day long means Obi-Wan beats a quick and tactical retreat.

    I don't know that Anakin would've beaten Yoda, but I think it makes for a very interesting what-if. Like the above hypothesis, if Anakin and Yoda stick to sabers, I think Anakin wins. I just don't think 800+ year old Yoda has the stamina to have such a prolonged duel as Anakin and Obi-Wan had. When it comes to using the Force to hurl large chunks of equipment at one another, Yoda cleans the floor with him.

    And if the movies have shown anything, it's that any given character can beat any other character on any given Sunday:

    Dooku trains Qui-Gon
    Sidious trains Maul
    Qui-Gon trains Obi-Wan
    Maul defeats Qui-gon
    Obi-Wan defeats Maul
    Obi-Wan trains Anakin
    Dooku defeats Obi-Wan
    Dooku defeats Anakin
    Dooku draws Yoda
    Dooku trains Grievous
    Dooku defeats Obi-Wan
    Anakin defeats Dooku
    Obi-Wan defeats Grievous
    Sidious defeats Yoda
    Obi-Wan defeats Anakin
    Obi-Wan/Yoda train Luke
    Vader defeats Obi-Wan
    Vader defeats Luke
    Luke defeats Vader
    Vader defeats Sidious

  15. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I just read all of it. Impressive, I must say. However, I think you portrayed Yoda as too ill-tempered. I don't think we see any character that is calmer than Yoda. Also, I think Yoda would defeat Anakin. The ending was spectacular though... I was hoping you actually would have given Yoda the reverance he deserves - the PT did him justice, but not too much I think. But I'm a Yoda fan.

    Good and interesting writing=D=
  16. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    ticopuma
    Yoda would have killed Anakin in about 4 minutes
    Sidious would have beaten Obi Wan in about 2 minutes
    Yoda vs. Sidious
    Stalemate


    Whew! I agree with ticopuma. V I do not agree with these ones, though. V :)

    Obi-2_Kenobi
    From the looks of yoda vs. dooku and ankin vs. dooku(2), i would say yoda and anakin are about equal in combat. Plus Obi-wan survived anakin's most vicious onslaught ever and then beat him, adding to the ist of seemingly stronger opponents he has beaten. I think he could at least hang with sidious.


    mjerome3
    I think Obi-Wan would have lasted 10 seconds with Sidious because he didn't even last 30 seconds against Dooku.


    I agree with mjerome3 so much here, but then . . . wha?!?! V What's this V

    mjerome3
    Anakin vs. Yoda would have been interesting. I believe Anakin would have struggle against Yoda, much like Luke struggled against Vader in ESB. But having just beat Dooku, and seeing that Yoda and Dooku had fough to a stand still, I could imagine Anakin pulling out a victory, with Yoda retreating.


    Please don't tell me common opinion is the dooku-yoda fight was a stalemate, jeez! You really believe Vader could defeat Yoda? Maybe in time, but no way in RotS.

    kyoshiro-kenobi
    I honestly believe that Obi-Wan could have and would have conquered Sidious. He was flat-out the more skilled with a lightsaber. I don't think he would've have gone in as cocky as Yoda, and wouldn't have been caught off-guard with the Sith lightning. I think he could have kept the fight contained in Sidious' chambers, limited to lightsabers. That being the case, he wins.


    Well, since you've got kenobi in your name, I'll give you this one - even if there's no way. :)

    kyoshiro-kenobi
    I don't know that Anakin would've beaten Yoda, but I think it makes for a very interesting what-if. Like the above hypothesis, if Anakin and Yoda stick to sabers, I think Anakin wins. I just don't think 800+ year old Yoda has the stamina to have such a prolonged duel as Anakin and Obi-Wan had. When it comes to using the Force to hurl large chunks of equipment at one another, Yoda cleans the floor with him.


    Man, it's like Yoda is just another Jedi, it seems. To me, he is the greatest lightside user of the force ever.

    Look at the final fight scene in RotS: Yoda retreats where Vader rushes in -> Yoda is far superior to Vader.
  17. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I don't think Yoda is affected by a little crude thing such as stamina. The force guides him, and a powerfull ally it is[face_dancing]

    Yoda could have gone to Mustafar and killed Anakin, and he would have done it. However, he saw the chance of killing both. He was not weaker than SIdeous, but it was not HIS destiny to defeat Sideous. That's what happened to Mace as well... the small things that we would refer to as luck determines a battle that would otherwise go to the best. Mace bested Sideous, but was killed by Anakin. Yoda gained the upper hand against Sideous in their force duel, but fell because he couldn't catch on to anything - luck? or fate?

    OBW vs Sideous... I'm an OBW fan. Am I then excused not to say anything. For the benefit of my, and OBW's health?:D
  18. ticopuma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2005
    star 5
    Although people dont really listen to me. Although I'm 99.9% suer Yoda would pwn Anakin, I am the president of the yoda fan club so...dont take my word for things if it includes yoda:p
  19. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    Well according to Yoda, Kenobi could not deal with DS, but if Mace could fight him Kenobi could, and i would never underestimate Kenobi, in saying that Sidious would kill him. Anakin in a straight up lightsaber fight by ROTS rivaled Yoda, and proably had passed him in that aspect, Yoda would have used the force though, and Anakin could not hang with him in that. They did both fight Count Dooku. Yoda did not touch him, he might have if it had gone on, but Dooku had to be somewhat tired after the 2, and Anakin cut off his head, so.
  20. jedi_jacks Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 17, 2005
    star 4
    ZamWesell44
    Well according to Yoda, Kenobi could not deal with DS, but if Mace could fight him Kenobi could, and i would never underestimate Kenobi, in saying that Sidious would kill him.


    Mace Windu would have beaten Obi-Wan mercifully and easily, exactly like Yoda could.

    ZamWesell44
    Anakin in a straight up lightsaber fight by ROTS rivaled Yoda, and proably had passed him in that aspect, Yoda would have used the force though, and Anakin could not hang with him in that. They did both fight Count Dooku. Yoda did not touch him, he might have if it had gone on, but Dooku had to be somewhat tired after the 2, and Anakin cut off his head, so.


    Anakin has potential, moments where he surpasses Yoda even, but no way is Anakin ready for either Yoda or Sidious . . . yet.

    And what do we think about force powers?

    Me, I think it is very powerful against non-force users, but not against competatent jedi. Dooku got the best of Obi-Wan once (RotS), Vader got the best of young Luke once (tESB), Dooku electro-shocked Anakin when he wasn't expecting it (AotC) -- but for the most part, force pushes and electricity are no match for a lightsaber. Look at Obi-Wan and Dooku (AotC), Dooku would've overpowered Obi-Wan with electricy right there if he could.

    lightsaber beats force pushes, electricity almost everytime

    lightsaber > force pushes, electricity.
  21. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    Mace would not beat Kenobi easily, thats crazy.
    IF lightsaber is greater Anakin would beat Yoda. He looked ready fighting Dooku.
  22. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Clearly you are biased towards OBW and Anakin. OBW's greates feat was not his amazing strengths. If you read the OS he was barely taken up by Qui-Gon to be trained. OBW has intensity and he is persistent, both in reaching his goals and in standing up for what he believes in.

    Mace is a powerful character. We know too little of him really. But we know he is supposed to be on par with Yoda. Yoda is the top dog.

    The duel between OBW and Anakin shows more than anything that even though there is someone who is possibly more powerful, he can be defeated because of his lack of experience and calmness. Mace is portrayed as extremely powerful. Just look at how easily he takes out Fett? How he disarms and overpowers Sideous. What more proof do you need?

    OBW is the cunning, wise and brilliant Jedi, who always seem to achieve his goals. But Yoda says that enough is enough. Let's not tempt fate any further. You can't compete with Sideous. It is said that only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sideous... they showed they could. OBW showed us he could defeat Anakin - not bad that either if you ask me;)
  23. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    it is also said in that quote that Anakin can beat Sidious, and it does not say in the future. It says Anakin could have could done it, had he not been beaten by Kenobi.
  24. JediKnight_EJL Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2006
    I think you all overestimate Yoda, Yoda is powerful but if you all remember in AOTC Yoda fights Dooku and Dooku holds his own against him, in ROTS Anakin takes Dooku back to lightsaber school. Anakin was really powerful don?t get me wrong Yoda would have beat Anakin but it would have been a matched battle. Overall if Yoda fought Anakin and Obi fought Sidious they would have both succeeded. Don?t underestimate Obi Wan Kenobi.
  25. ticopuma Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2005
    star 5
    Anakin could have beaten ANYONE, but because of his stupidity never got to that point.
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