Full Series What influence did Ahsoka have on Vader?

Although it has been a little while since I watched TotA in full, I definitely remember the feeling that Ahsoka has had an influence on Vader during when he addressed her by her actual name. The episode had me thinking: while Luke was the one who brought Anakin Skywalker back to the light, was he the only one to do so?

When I say that, I mean that Ahsoka, while she failed to bring her former master back from the dark side, definitely left an influence on him. An influence that would linger in Vader up until his son managed to finish what Ahsoka started.

Thing is, I see some parallels between Vader's interactions with Luke and Ahsoka. Although they varied in whether the light or darkness in Anakin/Vader emerged in the end, I think the comparable results in Ahsoka's interactions with Vader that would later be seen by Luke's would say something about who Ahsoka was to Vader even as a Sith Lord.

The first thing is that Vader would never bring up anything that had ties to his past. The sole and major exception in the movies would be when Vader attempts to recruit Luke, initially revealing himself as not the killer of Kenobi's Jedi pupil but the pupil himself - and eventually submitting himself as the former Anakin Skywalker by name. When Ahsoka was involved in Rebels, the pattern seemed pretty congruent; Vader mentioned "Anakin Skywalker" as a different individual (first to Sidious and later to Ahsoka directly). However, later on (Episode VI for Luke and for Ahsoka, when she revealed part of his face), he finally confessed himself as the former Anakin Skywalker. Even in Luke's case, he did that before he turned back to the light. As for Ahsoka, during the few seconds where he seemed to be struggling with the light (and need I point out that the conflict was likely the only time he would be doing so until the movies), he would directly address Ahsoka by name (something he never did to anyone ever, let alone the one who was a direct tie to his past). During that time, he wouldn't even try to mask his past - at least until Vader resurfaced.

In addition, Vader's intentions with Ahsoka seemed pretty similar to what he would later attempt with Luke: bring them to the dark side or kill them.

So I was wondering if this seems pretty plausible (in terms of Ahsoka being the first one who tempts Vader back to the light rather than Luke).

 

There was clearly a bit of conflict in his eyes for a brief moment, but that's about it. He quickly snapped back into Darth Vader.

 

Macromind101
Actually Filoni talked about this point and this is what he has to say about this.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-producer-of-star-wars-rebels-answers-your-burning-q-1768048083

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/03...hsokas-fate-mauls-return-and-much-more?page=2

And here. At 57:42

 

This was definitely discussed following that Twilight episode originally aired. I'm kind of surprised this isn't merged into the Ahsoka thread. Certainly an appropriate topic.

 

I like to think that C-3PO is what gave him a change of heart.

 

Not altogether a whole lot, as best I can tell. Is the most concise answer to the OP as I see it.

I could go into greater depth, but others have already done so above. Ahsoka was a living embodiment of Anakin, as long as she lived something of Anakin lived on in her, and Vader can't tolerate that.

Influence wise... momentarily she maybe connected with Anakin, during a moment when Vader was stunned. Then Vader reasserted himself, and kicked Anakin back into his mind-prison, and was all like Now you die! If Vader hadn't been determined to kill her before, he sure was after the incident of reaching out to Anakin and almost momentarily connecting with him.

 

To be honest none and to state otherwise would be a detriment to Vader as a character. If anything did come out of it Vader was probobly like "great another connection to Anakin is dead

 

It was the whole "detriment to Vader's character" notion that played into the ambiguous ending of the Twilight episode in the first place. The writers didn't want to disappoint the Vader enthusiasts by portraying him as a sympathetic softy granting Ahsoka mercy, and they didn't want to disappoint the countless Ahsoka fans by showing her death front and center.

 

Its really the reason they don't use him at all really is that they don't want to "ruin" him as a character.

 

There's actually a name for what they're afraid of: Villain Decay, it's a recognized trope. It's the near-inevitable result of overusing a villain in a show that also features heavily character-shielded protagonists.

It's also why Rebels is using Thrawn sparingly.

 

Near zero. Luke is supposed to be the one to lead Vader on the path to redemption.

 

Not sure how using him in Rebels would "ruin" him, but whatever.

 

There's some analyses that Filoni has given over the years that I strongly disagree with, and this is one of them.

He says that he hates Ahsoka and wants her dead because he reminds her of his past, when Luke represents the future...

How exactly does seeing that his child is alive not remind him of the family he was anticipating to start with Padme?

Hell, in the Vader comic he immediately has flashbacks to her when he learns Luke is alive.

Plus, Luke was constantly reminding Vader of his past in ROTJ, constantly calling attention to the fact that he's Anakin, or that he was once a Jedi, etc.

I feel like having Ahsoka even try to reach out to Vader with compassion was a narrative mistake. Obi-Wan doesn't. In fact Yoda and Obi-Wan write him off as having fallen too far and gone forever.

I feel like Luke redeeming Vader has more to do with him sensing the good and his persistence and unrelenting compassion than anything. Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't even try.

Having Ahsoka try and get rejected under the excuse that it's because she's not his son and reminds him of his past is erroneous IMO.

I lump it in with his beliefs that I strongly disagree with such as:

-Han can't understand Chewie - really?

-R2-D2 is analogous to a dog- Always seemed more like an impulsive kid.

-Mace Windu would have been arrested following killing Sidious- Uhhh... Ki-adi-mundi and Mace openly talk about seizing control of the Senate

-Yoda and Obi-Wan want Luke to redeem Vader- What movies was he watching?!


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I agree about Obi-wan not trying even if it is contradictory with "Obi-wan once thought as you do"
Not sure I'd say that about a guy who just stood and watch me burn to death

 

"There's still good in him, Obi-Wan" - Padme

"You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you." - Obi-Wan

"There is still good in him" - Luke

"Only a master of evil" - Obi-Wan

"I can't kill my own father"
"Then the Emperor has already won." - Luke and Obi-Wan

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate one's destiny." - Yoda

IMO it's clear that Padme and Luke, through their compassion/familial connection can sense the good in Vader enough to show him compassion, despite everything he's done.

Obi-Wan and Yoda seem blind to it and write him off as gone forever, and after Anakin was defeated on Mustafar, Obi-Wan starts using the past tense to start referring to him. "You WERE my brother" etc.

Mistake #1 IMO was having Ahsoka sense the good in him. Dave made the comment that the reason she begins to believe Vader may be Anakin is because she couldn't sense Anakin after Order 66 and believed him dead, but got a fleeting sense of Anakin during her first encounter with Vader.

When Ahsoka senses Anakin/good in Vader, no matter how fleeting, they are putting Ahsoka in the same boat as Padme and Luke, allowing her to feel something that only Vader's family could feel.

Mistake #2 is having Ahsoka reach out to Vader compassionately. Padme sensed good, but didn't live long enough to do anything about it. Luke sensed good in Vader and almost immediately when he started appealing to the good man that was Anakin, it began to make Vader conflicted.

Luke sensed something that nobody else but his mother could, and he rejected the beliefs of his mentors that Vader couldn't be redeemed.

By having Ahsoka reach out to Vader, Dave set this precedent where a third person sees it too but that Vader wants her dead.

Vader didn't want Padme dead. He didn't want Luke dead. But he wants a daughter figure of his dead because she reminds him of the past? Luke should be a walking reminder of Padme and how he killed her.

IMO there's only two directions that confrontation should have gone

First: Ahsoka doesn't sense that Vader is Anakin until she slices his helmet open, and then feels nothing but anger for Anakin, joining Obi-Wan and Yoda among those that fear Anakin is lost forever. That would have been the most narratively sound course, IMO.

Second: the Temple blows up and Vader and Ahsoka are both weakened, and Vader's hate is tempered enough to tell Ahsoka something like "if I ever see you again, I'll kill you" having his hate tempered enough to spare her. Where her compassion has some form of effect on Vader.

Filoni went a third route that I disagree with 100% as not being sound with what Lucas showed in the films. And like I said, it's not the first time he has shown a view of the films I cannot comprehend.


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The worst from clashing with the movie point in jmo is Ezra and (to a lesser extent) Kanan. They shouldn't be running around (especially if one is meant to be blind !) it's highly contradictory and no amount of twisting it with sleight of hand stuff is going to change that

 

Ahsoka was the direct connection of Anakin's Jedi past. Of course he would want her put down as part of his role as Palp's apprentice. It's not like he ever had a grudge on her the way he has with Kenobi. If Palp wasn't pulling the strings, I highly doubt he'd be so vengeful-minded against Ahsoka. Gee, she walked out on the Jedi Order and "made him look bad". Yeah, that's grounds to kill her. lol

 

My point is that if Vader wants to kill everything that reminds him on Anakin, then he would surely want Luke dead. Luke is a reminder of the family he was supposed to have with Padme. It would be a reminder of the guilt, and shame, and feeling of resentment to weakness that Vader has.

But instead of wanting him dead, Vader becomes conflicted.

"I feel the good in you. That's why you couldn't bring yourself to kill me." - Luke

Luke is just as much a reminder of Anakin as Ahsoka is, if not more so. But Vader is conflicted over Luke but not Ahsoka?

Anakin begins to show through enough that Luke can sense it, but Obi-Wan couldn't. Vader's hatred is more at the forefront, not allowing Obi-Wan to sense him.

By Dave's argument, Vader and Anakin, despite being the same person, do not feel the same way in the Force. Ahsoka couldn't sense Anakin after Order 66 and believed him dead.

It stands to reason that Obi-Wan can't sense Anakin either, and thus writes him off as truly gone.

The fact however that Ahsoka sensed Anakin when Vader and Ahsoka became aware of each other's presence would inherently show that, like Luke, Ahsoka is making Vader conflicted.

Yoda and Obi-Wan don't see conflict. They only see an evil guy that must be killed. Luke sees good that can be reached and makes Vader even more conflicted. When Luke shows his compassion extends such that he'd rather die than kill his evil father, it redeems Vader.

Ahsoka senses good for a moment. And then when faced with the reality that Vader is Anakin, she too shows a willingness to sacrifice herself. As far as anyone knew, that Temple could have blown up and killed everyone. But Ahsoka shows that she's willing to make things right. To stay with Anakin rather than walk away from an uncertain fate. And Vader reacts to that by wanting to kill her.

There's something not right about that, IMO.

The notion that Ahsoka reminds Vader of his past but Luke doesn't is impossible for me to accept, especially when the comic shows that's not true at all. Finding out Luke is alive very much reminds Vader of his past and of Padme, and creates anger towards Palpatine for lying to him about Padme.

So I don't think Vader would have any more reason to hate Ahsoka on those grounds.

Obi-Wan washed his hands of Vader on Mustafar and left him for dead, then proceeded to taunt him in ANH. So of course Vader is angry.



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I think Kenobi thought the badly injured Vader would die, but the other fact still remains, Kenobi would not kill Anakin even as "Vader", anymore than Luke could in ROTJ. Why because he loved him, he was like his brother. Kenobi stressed this to Yoda, but Yoda overrode him and sent him anyway to do what a Jedi must, and he failed. Yoda and Kenobi are certainly not perfect or unbeatable. By Anakin/Vader not simply dying AND Kenobi also knew prior that Sith do not die easily, he said as much when Maul returned ( "everything we have learned from this, is that Sith are persistent, they will not die") happening and his failure. I don't think Kenobi has moral high ground or can be taken as an infallible verbal source . Kenobi would also be always skewered to his own personal or professional views and bias. Well Anakin was not much better than Vader . Vader is just the unrestrained version of him that he was always attempting to resist(this is seen in the Mortis arc for clarity when he joins The Son), his chains were broken with the embrace of the Sith. I think Luke just felt Vader's humanity, as Sidious does not seem capable of entirely stripping his apprentices of, including Darth Maul. Or perhaps inside these deranged characters their is an eternal inner war, a volatile concoction of good and bad feelings. The Bendu seems to make that al less absolute and more subjective. So are all these characters flawed, does possessing just one half or seeking domince of one over the other, kinda make them destined for self destruction. Where is the balance. I don't think Kenobi's line " the good man that was you father, was destroyed" really makes any sense while viewing the PT (including even TCW). All the signs where there that Anakin was a psycho and a problematic student, Kenobi in the films is portrayed very awkward as well, even had very conflicting dialogue about Anakin and him being dangerous ect . Kenobi's views wax and wane or he has dementia, or the writing is really awful or all. I don't know. I never found Kenobi to be consistent.

With Ahsoka, I think Dave wanted to put her in a bubble, where she can embrace commonly accepted and understood Dark Side and evil emotions with her rejecting the Jedi philosophy or the parts she's apparently immune from, and going for revenge and cold blooded kill, while still remaining quintessentially good and a warrior of the Light. For that we have to more turn to The Daughter of Mortis who while the personification of Good but not Jedi, was still kinda ambiguous or in a shade of gray or middle which seem to themes repeated and plucked from the EU again. Ahsoka took the form of the goddess in the Hero's Journey of Ezra Bridger. Vader mainly wanted Luke as a weapon against his master, but later accepted his place and resided himself to staying loyal in fear of his master and the power of the dark side. it took a very long time for good to break through, where Vader or Anakin made the choice. Before the PT, it was more or less clear Vader did it to save his son because of love, whether his love for his son, or is son's love for him or both perhaps. But the theme was love, not any prophecy and chosen one nonsense . Luke was also something of a problem in the end, and he always ignored the warnings and edicts of the Jedi Master's he came across. Him refusing to destroy Vader and his master per the Jedi tradition of lightsaber combat dueling, and his devotion and attachment to his father. Yoda and Kenobi don't particularly come out squeaky clean but they're still always portrayed as good guys and almost saint-like status. We also learn that all the Jedi were corrupted, and towards the end all were serving the Dark Side and being manipulated by the Sith. So here lies a question, are Yoda and Kenobi "cured" from this? How was Jinn, was he not also questionable and dubious and was he not corrupted as well by the Sith Shrine?! We kinda get the picture the Priestess(es) fixed Yoda, but did not Yoda go back to the Jedi Temple, would not the Sith Shrine again attack Yoda. The Yoda of ROTS did not seem anymore enlightened than he was in TPM. And Anakin somehow manages to "Force Ghost" via crazy Jinn or just because he's "the chosen one" but balance was never even brought to the universe hence the events following ROTJ and TFA. Do we need yet another "chosen one". In the end all this stuff just serves to create endless works of fiction to make money. The only way it could end, is with no more Star Wars.

 

What past does Luke remind Anakin of? I'm not up to par on all the Vader comics (have only read the first couple graphic novels cause I was interested in the Dr. Aphra character); but from all I remember, Vader never saw Luke as a child and had absolutely no involvement in raising him, right? So was it like a dream or something? "Oooooh, what might have been".

 

I see this a little differently. I always thought there was some brother/sister, father/daughter element to Anakin & Ahsoka's relationship. Especially on Anakin's part, since we all know he's not a fan of the whole "no attachments" thing.

At this point in time, Anakin is still too much Vader. But there has got to be something that sets him on the path to redemption. He's perfectly prepared to blow Luke away at Yavin 4, and he didn't seem to have any recognition that Luke is his son then. For him to go from that to "I want to turn my kid to the Dark Side so we can rule the galaxy together" in ESB seems a bit abrupt to me. Even when he does learn after the fact that the pilot who destroyed the first Death Star is Luke Skywalker. Now, I haven't read any of the comics, so I'm just basing this off the movies.

Ahsoka could never redeem Anakin, since we know Luke does that. Personally, I feel this encounter starts a little chink in Vader that lingers until he learns about Luke.

 

I in no way feel Yoda and Obi-Wan are infallible. I feel quite the contrary that Luke was right and Yoda and Obi-Wan were wrong.

IMO, the OT is about finding one's way. Not just literally the Rebellion against the Empire, but against authority as Luke goes from a kid to an adult (or from farm boy to Jedi).

He wants to leave Tatooine but is subject to what his uncle wants. He is given a weapon that belonged to his father, told Vader killed him, told Vader cannot be redeemed.

When Luke finds out Vader is his father, his anger towards Vader turns to compassion. Something I think Obi-Wan and Yoda did not want. Obi-Wan tells Luke that if Luke cannot find it within himself to kill Vader, then the Emperor wins. Luke goes against what these authority figures tell him and does what he feels is right. And in the end it is the right thing and he ends up redeeming Vader.

Obi-Wan and Yoda are important in that they open Luke up to the Force. But Luke's journey begins with him being given a weapon and told his father was murdered, and it ends (at least in ROTJ) when he proclaims himself a Jedi, throws away the weapon, and embraces the idea that his is alive. So while they are valued as mentors, I think the message is that they don't know what's best for Luke.

All throughout the OT, different authority figures: Owen, Vader, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Palpatine are all trying to convince Luke of what his destiny is, when in reality it's something he needs to find out himself.

Which is why I'm so against the concept Dave has mentioned before that Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to redeem Vader and were guiding him down that path. I feel like that flies in the face of what the OT shows, and skews the message of growing up and finding oneself, if the mentors were manipulating him the whole time.

When Yoda talks to Ezra in Rebels and cautions against fighting and thinks there's another path to victory, I too think that's a really incompatible path to take the story at that point of the time line, since Obi-Wan would presumably be on the same page as Yoda, and Obi-Wan thinks Luke must kill Vader. And Yoda also says Luke was not ready for the emotional burden of knowing the truth, he didn't want Luke to feel a sympathy to Vader, when it's that compassion that saves Vader.

It's odd to me that Yoda is so against fighting in Rebels, and so nice and understanding towards Ezra, while later he comes across as harsher towards Luke, and implies he expects Luke to kill Vader, saying both that Luke must confront Vader, but that Vader's destiny is forever dominated by the Dark Side.

I feel like the only way to remedy that is for something to happen in between. Maybe it's Ahsoka's failure with Vader that convinces Yoda that there's no humanity left in Vader and that Luke shouldn't even try to reach him.

But then the question is what's so special about Luke?

The light side was never entirely snuffed out of Vader. Padme sensed it. Luke sensed it. Palpatine sensed in (in the Tarkin novel). And the second to last issue of Darth Vader takes place largely as a personification of Vader's inner turmoil, showing that there is a part of Vader that hates himself for killing Obi-Wan, that there's a part of him that wishes he had been killed on Mustafar, etc.

Obi-Wan did not want to kill Vader on Mustafar, this is true. But his failure to do so doomed the Galaxy. When he tells Luke he must be willing to kill Vader, I feel that he's speaking from experience. That he can't let his personal feelings get in the way of must be done.

Had Obi-Wan killed Anakin, a lot of evil would have been averted. Had Obi-Wan rescued the crippled Anakin, taken him back on the ship to save him and took him back to Yoda and showed him forgiveness and to face Padme, maybe he would have snapped out of it, especially if Padme survived.

But instead, Obi-Wan left him to burn. He leaves Vader to be rescued by Palpatine. He's of course going to hate Obi-Wan. I'm sure Obi-Wan expected Anakin to die, but because he didn't see it through, because he walked away, I think he feels a degree of guilt for what happened and he doesn't want Luke making the same mistake. He thinks Luke has to be willing to kill him.

The good was always there in Vader, and we see that there's turmoil in Vader even before Luke, but the pull of the Dark Side proved too strong. When Luke enters the picture and insists that Vader is deserving of compassion, it immediately has an effect on Vader as he struggles with his own guilt.

"It is too late for me." - Vader

So when Ahsoka shows Vader compassion before Luke chronologically, I feel like it's a messy situation.

I feel like in the films, Luke was the first one to show Vader compassion, and so it has a very powerful effect on him. But now it's shown that he's not the first, that Ahsoka had a similar interaction with Vader and it has no effect.

There's that side of Vader - the good side - that feels guilt and shame for everything he's done. When Luke was the first person to show him compassion, it came across as Luke doing something that nobody else had ever tried. But now there's a precedent established retroactively that Ahsoka tried first to little/no effect.

Again, the best thing that I could see coming out of this is to use Ahsoka's failure to justify Yoda's change of attitude between how he talks to Ezra in Rebels and how he talks to Luke in ESB.

Boba Fett tells Vader that the guy that destroyed the Death Star is named Skywalker. This causes Vader to have flashbacks of Padme telling him she's pregnant, of Vader being told by Palpatine that he killed Padme, of Padme on Mustafar, and of nearly shooting down Luke. He gets angry and the bridge window on his Death Star begins to crack.

He says, "I have a son. He will be mine. It will all be mine."

Dave's argument was that Ahsoka reminds Vader of the man he used to be and he wants to forget, ergo he wants her dead. Luke himself may not have been a part of Vader's past, but he very much reminds Vader of his past.

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I always thought it was the fact of knowing his child whom he thought he killed survived that start the change from Vader to Anakin, when he learned that Palpatine lied to him about Padme's death I didn't find anything abrupt about the difference in ANH and ESB because it was more about Obi-Wan and he didn't even know about his Force-sensitivity until the battle of Yavin, just like he didn't sense his own daughter right in front of him. At first he's all about ruling the galaxy as father and son which he didn't propose to Ahsoka, he didn't even try to hide her survival from Palpatine. Then after Cloud City when Luke chose death over joining him, something changed. He became more and more conflicted like we see in RotJ until his fateful at the end of the movie.

 

To me it's odd that he didn't offer anything to Ahsoka. He was willing to overthrow Palpatine for Padme. He left an opportunity for Obi-Wan to join him on Mustafar. He wants Luke to join him. All three cases come across as sincere.

With Ahsoka, the "mercy" he says the Emperor will show her seems like a manipulative lie.

With Luke in particular though, I don't think Vader really had any designs against Palpatine until he was delivered a 1, 2 punch.

He found out that Palpatine had sought to replace him after Mustafar, and he found out that Palpatine lied about Padme.

So I think after that his hatred shifted towards Palpatine, and so suddenly he had the ambition to overthrow him, that then seemed to fade by the time of ROTJ (for as of yet unknown reasons.)

Palpatine have Anakin an explicit order that Obi-Wan was an enemy of the state, but still Anakin says

"Don't make me kill you."
"If you're not with me, then you're my enemy."

He may not have formally offered an alliance with Obi-Wan, but his rhetoric implies that he had hoped Obi-Wan would side with him, which would have gone against Palpatine. With Padme and Luke he explicitly talks about openly betraying Palpatine and overthrowing him.

With Ahsoka, she gets like a manipulative fake offer. She was not a Jedi that held him back or kept knowledge from him. She, like he, turned her back on the Jedi too. It's just odd to me that Vader wouldn't really extend an offer to join him.



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