What is best for the GALAXY?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by darth-sinister, Apr 9, 2005.

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  1. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
  2. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    im back!

    well you know what they say EH PILOT....opposites attract!




  3. DarthSyphus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 1
    We know absolutely nothing about the policies of the Empire. Certainly, they fight against the rebels, but any government is supposed to fight against rebels that try to overthrow it; I've never heard of a government that surrenders its power voluntarily to rebels.

    The _only_ thing that we know about the policies of the Empire is mentioned in ANH: we know that the Empire boards smugglers' ships, and we know that Han Solo is a smuggler for Jabba the Hutt. So, yes, the _only_ thing we know about Imperial policy is that they cracked down on criminal activities. Which is a good thing, of course.
  4. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    ~they dissolve the senate,the only voice of the people
    ~they pass down power to regional governors, who rule over people who didnt elect them
    ~star systems are kept in line by fear ie war machines


    the people obviously have a problem with this type of rule. what makes the empire bad is the fact that is resists the will of the people, and will do anything to hold onto its power.
  5. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    "~they dissolve the senate,the only voice of the people"

    Yes, they dissolve a legislature full of corrupt, power-hungry traitors.

    "~they pass down power to regional governors, who rule over people who didnt elect them"

    I find to have little faith in people that would elect a 19 year old to represent them, and even less in the people that would elect a planet-wide ruler younger than 15 years old. Of course, the people elected by the people found it best to bestow the status of dictator onto Palpatine, so you have to wonder if all this wasn't the will of the people. :)

    "~star systems are kept in line by fear ie war machines"

    Wrongo. The quote goes...

    "Fear will keep the local systems in line, fear of this battle station."

    Of course, "this battlestation" is a slowly expanding cloud of debris and radioactice energy not too long afterward.

    See the difference?

    "the people obviously have a problem with this type of rule. what makes the empire bad is the fact that is resists the will of the people, and will do anything to hold onto its power."

    Yes, so much so that the regime is actually popular for almost twenty years. Perhaps you don't see how outright incapable the Republic was.

    Now please don't be rude and answer Lord_Hydronium. He took the time to add his arguement. The least you could do is respond :)
  6. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "And the Empire is much safer in the hands of the Sith then it would be under the Jedi. Jedi taking over would be instant Civil War "

    honestly...calling a galaxy where whoever disagrees can be blown away...safer then a republic that would be governed by the jedi temporarily? an empire that us ruled by elitist humans, an empire that kills innocent jawas and a farming family simply for temporarily coming in contact with driods?

    oh...and remeber what happend when the sith took over...it lead to civil war.

    "So not only is it a coup, it's a religious war. A Jedi jihad, if you will. Purging the infidels, heretics, and forces of evil from the Republic. Which makes the Jedi oligarchy also a Jedi theocracy as well. Add "Execute followers of all other religions" to the description above."

    episode 1: qui gon comes into contact with the gungans who worshipped gods, and he didnt kill them. he may have pitied them that they didnt recognize the force, but he didnt kill them. he respected their religion, even if he knew the force was much more tangible than a faceless deity. and the fact is that the sith are the ancient enemy of the jedi, who are hell bent on the destruction of the jedi order. they are also behind the war, and will do anything to rule...which leads to opression. it is the jedi's duty to purge the galaxy of the threat posed by the sith. so yes you can view it as a jihad....but is that a bad thing? remember the sith are the ones who are undeniably evil.

    "Since when did the Empire "go out of its way to kill innocents"? With some of these posts you'd think the Empire was a bunch of cackling men who kick every puppy they see and sit around plotting how to kill Superman. Now, I agree that the Empire is a Bad Thing (even if I disagree that a Jedi oligarchy is any better), but to act like it's some cartoonish supervillain is to ignore the whole point of the Empire. It is accepted because most people see it as a good thing, and that's how it portrays itself. And do you really think the Rebellion never tried to hurt an innocent? That its members are Crusaders for the Cause of Justice and Light? It's a militia/terrorist organization. It's bound to have more than a few nuts in it, as well as people bitter with the Empire, people with misplaced anger, and in general people who see any Imperial citizen as a justifiable target. Every army has those; it's what causes war atrocities. The Rebels are no more immune to the lows of human nature than anyone else."


    killing jawas. the jawas never knew about the plans they were carrying, but that didnt matter. when they realize the desert dwellers were innocent accessories, they decide to frame the sand people. public image is important to the empire...even if it is to the detrimate of another race. this just screams out of control police state.

    killing the lars family. its obvious they interogated the jawas, or checked their records to determine where the droids wound up. when the lars family knew nothing about the droids....they were killed. once again, an out of control police state that slaugters those who knew nothing about the stolen plans. no matter how it happend....the empire was wrong to kill innocent bystandards.
  7. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "Yes, they dissolve a legislature full of corrupt, power-hungry traitors"

    then why didnt he simply allow the people to elect new leaders? oh thats right...because they probably would have elected senators who were rebel sympathizers, we cant have that, even if it is the will of the people. remeber a governmennt draws its authority from the people. and i understand that yes, in episode 3, palpatine proclaimed himself emperor with the senate's approval. but judging by vader's capitan's comments "if word of this gets out...." its obvious the people may be supporting the rebel alliance, and what it is fighting for.

    "Yes, so much so that the regime is actually popular for almost twenty years. Perhaps you don't see how outright incapable the Republic was."

    judging by various comments from ANH, we are able to deduce many across the empire want their totalitarian government toppled. it doesnt matter how much they cheered in episode 3, as of now, they are no longer cheering.
    "its not that i like the empire, i hate it..."
    "if word of this gets out, it could generate a sympathy for the rebellion in the senate"

    the senate is the voice of the people, thats why they are dissolved, because the people are finally seeing through the empire's lies, and witnessing its' true nature.

    "Fear will keep the local systems in line, fear of this battle station."
    the message is the same. diplomacy and reform are no longer policies. and note what takrin says...he doesnt make reference to the alliance...he makes reference to independent, sovreign systems. we can infer that these sovreign legitimate governments disagree with the empire. and even for slightly dissenting, they could be blown away.
  8. MasterMak55 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2005
    star 1
    From what we know aboutthe characters in the PT and OT, I would definately say the Jedi oligarchy would be a better option than Palpatine. The only thing we would have to worry about is the Jedi losing their Jedi like characteristics and becoming like power-hungry Sith Lords.

    "...Remember your early training, every person who gains power is afraid to lose it - Even the Jedi"

    The Jedis are supposedly the best people in the Galaxy, let them control it and everyone else.
  9. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    i do agree...they could become power hungry.


    but with the jedi, i dont think they really would have had to worried about that


    ~it is not in their nature to rule, they dont desire it.
    ~they were willing to sacrifice themselves in the clone wars...this meant lessening their influence and the power they already had. if they could put themselves in the front lines, and risk the deaths of many of their comrades and themselves, it sounds to me like they are willing to let go of the power they already have. if they havent been corrupted by the power of being protectors (which they havent) then we can assume they wouldnt be corrupted by their power as temporary leaders of the senate
    ~because the jedi havent manipulated the system, we can assume mace wasnt lying when he said "temporarily...to ensure a peaceful transition"
  10. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    "then why didnt he simply allow the people to elect new leaders? oh thats right...because they probably would have elected senators who were rebel sympathizers, we cant have that, even if it is the will of the people."

    No, we really can't. :)

    Of course, there's not much to go on in terms of a wide-ranging popular support for the Rebellion, either.

    "and i understand that yes, in episode 3, palpatine proclaimed himself emperor with the senate's approval."

    That's nice. And he had been dictator for three years, at the behest of the Senate and the people.

    I ask you again, do you even know what a dictator is? :)

    "but judging by vader's capitan's comments "if word of this gets out...." its obvious the people may be supporting the rebel alliance, and what it is fighting for."

    Of course, the whole quote is "...it could generate sympathy in the Senate." which just goes to show you how oh so loyal the Senate was. :)

    ""its not that i like the empire, i hate it...""

    From a boy, mind you, who had been begging his uncle to let him join the Imperial military.

    ""if word of this gets out, it could generate a sympathy for the rebellion in the senate""

    So you admit the Senate was traitorous, or at the very least, untrustworthy.

    "the senate is the voice of the people, thats why they are dissolved, because the people are finally seeing through the empire's lies, and witnessing its' true nature."

    Or maybe it was dissolved since it was worthless, inefficient, and treasonous?

    "the message is the same. diplomacy and reform are no longer policies. and note what takrin says...he doesnt make reference to the alliance...he makes reference to independent, sovreign systems. we can infer that these sovreign legitimate governments disagree with the empire. and even for slightly dissenting, they could be blown away."

    First of all, he doesn't make reference to independent, sovereign systems. There are no such things. He means keeping Imperial citizens from revolting over heavy taxes neccesary for the continued mililtary-industrial complex of the New Order that was, mind you, keeping the galactic economy out of the disasterous depression it was suffering pre-AOTC.

    Secondly, if they even are sovereign governments, the Empire can bully them all it wants and still be no different than any nation on Earth.
  11. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "So you admit the Senate was traitorous, or at the very least, untrustworthy."

    yes many of its memebers were.

    but i ask you, is being traitorous to an institution that has stripped the people of many rights they once enjoyed, wrong? is being traitorous to a government that uses fear of utter anhilation, as a weapon, wrong? is being tritorous to a government that denies a large amount of its populace (the non human populace) rights that they once enjoyed, wrong? again it all depends on how the people, from which a leader should derive his power, feel.

    by the time of ANH, the senate doesnt weild as much power as it used to. this goes against the fundamental principles that the old republic stood for. no matter how much they cheered back then, at the current time the people have decided that they want the democracy to remain intact...thats the reason why there are so many sympathizers. who knows...maybe the only reason they aren't rebelling is because they still think there is hope to reason with the emperor, and convince him to give power back to the people.

    but more and more the senators, corrupt or not, are realizing that what is happening in this new order is just not right. hence why many either feel for, or support the alliance. if the senate cheering in ROTS is the will of the people as you have stated, then the same holds true for that governing body by the time of ANH. the people want a democracy. the emperor goes against their will, and abolishes it. he passess the power down to military elites who werent elected.

    "First of all, he doesn't make reference to independent, sovereign systems. There are no such things. He means keeping Imperial citizens from revolting over heavy taxes neccesary for the continued mililtary-industrial complex of the New Order that was, mind you, keeping the galactic economy out of the disasterous depression it was suffering pre-AOTC."

    in episode 1:"the chair recognizes the senator from the sovreign system of naboo." so systems were sovreign. that may not be the reference, but keep it mind, that sovreign systems was exactly what the republic was made up of. the republic was much like the UN. the star systems were incredibly autonomous, but had to obey rules, to be a memeber of the galactic government. by the time of ANH, the empire has "tightened its grip" on the star systems so much, that the people seem to believe it is over stepping its bounds.

    "fear will keep the local systems in line"

    thats a refrence to sovreign systems by default, sorry. this means that now the systems, not some "terrorsit organization" are questioning the empire's rule, and may be dissenters. and to me, the star systems would be justified. the fact that the empire uses fear and intimidation to scare citizens, is a reason it needs to be toppled.
  12. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    "but i ask you, is being traitorous to an institution that has stripped the people of many rights they once enjoyed, wrong? is being traitorous to a government that uses fear of utter anhilation, as a weapon, wrong? is being tritorous to a government that denies a large amount of its populace (the non human populace) rights that they once enjoyed, wrong? again it all depends on how the people, from which a leader should derive his power, feel."

    Depends on who wins the war.

    "by the time of ANH, the senate doesnt weild as much power as it used to. this goes against the fundamental principles that the old republic stood for. no matter how much they cheered back then, at the current time the people have decided that they want the democracy to remain intact...thats the reason why there are so many sympathizers. who knows...maybe the only reason they aren't rebelling is because they still think there is hope to reason with the emperor, and convince him to give power back to the people."

    The reason there are so many Rebel sympathizers (a very, very small number at that) is because the Empire's taxes for maintaining and expanding the New Order's military. Of course, with a Death Star, the Empire could do away with its vast military force with the threat of massive retaliation. You make it sound like the idea of a Death Star is bad.

    "but more and more the senators, corrupt or not, are realizing that what is happening in this new order is just not right. hence why many either feel for, or support the alliance. if the senate cheering in ROTS is the will of the people as you have stated, then the same holds true for that governing body by the time of ANH. the people want a democracy. the emperor goes against their will, and abolishes it. he passess the power down to military elites who werent elected."

    By ANH, the Imperial Throne is the governing body. The Senate is the beaurocracy that maintains the internal day to day affairs.

    "in episode 1:"the chair recognizes the senator from the sovreign system of naboo." so systems were sovreign."

    Regardless of what an incompetent like Valorum says, Naboo is not a sovereign nation. It's a member of the Republic. The Republic controls its armies, foreign affairs, taxes, and laws. It's more a state in the American sense than anything.

    "the republic was much like the UN."

    Except it's actually effective, enforcing its own laws with its own standing army and levies its own taxes with an executive leader who is actually the leader of the members of the Republic.

    "the star systems were incredibly autonomous, but had to obey rules, to be a memeber of the galactic government."

    And thereby is not sovereign. You can call them sovereign, but they're not. It is an empire, after all.

    "thats a refrence to sovreign systems by default, sorry. this means that now the systems, not some "terrorsit organization" are questioning the empire's rule, and may be dissenters."

    That's exactly what I said. Except if they are sovereign nations (which they aren't), then they're not so much "questioning the Empire's rule" so much as declaring war.

    "and to me, the star systems would be justified. the fact that the empire uses fear and intimidation to scare citizens, is a reason it needs to be toppled."

    Most of this had already occured during the Clone Wars, and they had already made him a dictator in AOTC, and kept him in office for an additional two years without an election.

    *shrug* That's what they get. Frankly, the Imperial system is a lot better than the New Republic the Rebels established.
  13. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Anybody want to do an updated count?
  14. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    I've already voiced my opinion on this.....



    I'm curious to know what the rest of you think. (especially new posters)
  15. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    It's weird, some form of #3 seems to be happening in the upcoming EU series Legacy of the Force.
    Is someone listening to us? [face_worried]

    ;)
  16. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    #5, with Jar Jar as the New Republic's Chancellor!

    Meesa tinks dissa fine topic, Lord Sini . . . .
  17. brook_33 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2003
    star 4
    Either 1 or 5 would be good.
  18. JASTERSLEGACEYV2 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2005
    star 1
    4, palpatine is as i've said before a near super genious and very adept with the force and being united would bring peace, if the rebels took over then there would be hundreds of years of war, if the empire won then peace and prosparity would rule and the tense military laws in place would be gone. so as you can see 4 is the best
  19. Tion_Meddon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2004
    star 4
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