What is best for the GALAXY?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by darth-sinister, Apr 9, 2005.

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  1. Lixsta Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2005
    star 2
    so i believe its his destiny to destroy the sith, not become one

    Did you watch the OT?? I hate to spoil it but Anakin becomes Vader and becomes a very evil Sith Lod


    you think its his destiny to become a sith AND destroy the sith


    I hate to spoil it again for you, But Vader kills the Emperor at the end
  2. DarthGeorgeBush Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 1
    Ok So DARTH Vader wasnt a Sith??? I See where this is going
  3. Lixsta Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2005
    star 2
    Vader's destiny was to become a Sith because he WAS a SITH in the OT! Wasnt he?!?! I though That was so obvious

    We already know Vaders destiny, well at least most of us
  4. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    *sigh*

    of course i knew anakin becomes vader, what i said was that he CHOSE, read that?! CHOSE to become vader. it wasnt his destiny as the chosen one.

    geeze...
  5. DarthGeorgeBush Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 1
    Well choice becomes part of your destiny.
  6. chad715 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2005
    star 1
  7. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    okay, so let me ask you:

    was it anakin's destiny as the chosen one to become vader? to become a sith?

    to me his destiny was to destroy them, not join them. becoming vader was a choice, not part of what he was sent to do.
  8. DarthGeorgeBush Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 1
    Watch the movies, because that is his destiny. Thats all I can say. Talking about destiny is a waste of time because we all know what happens
  9. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    *sigh*

    its like talking to a wall

    you try to have an intelligent conversation, and are almost taken down to the same level...

    but i must go run, sitting for too long in front of a computer makes me sick.
  10. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    If people are against 4 because it goes against democracy, why all the votes for 1? That's hardly democratic: the Jedi arrest or kill the elected leader (which could still be leagally justified, given that his dissemination of information to the Separatists is legally treason), take control of the elected Senate, and get rid of Senators elected by the people to replace them with "better" ones (read: ones who follow their ideals). That's as much a sham of democracy as the Empire. Heck, at least Palpatine was elected. The Jedi's authority in this case seems to be entirely predicated on the use of force. And once they're in power, who's getting them out? The military is at their command. The Senate is composed only of Senators who follow them, all others having been removed for being "corrupt". Any violent action can be stopped with their powers. They're certainly not going to leave on their own, given that they believe in the full righteousness of their cause and the need for peace and order (is this starting to sound familiar?). At least, for all the faults of the Empire, it was easier to remove. All its power centered in one man, and as difficult as it would be, if he could be taken out it would end his rule. With an entire Jedi aristocracy as the ruling class, it's much harder to remove the whole system. And what of Palpatine? He's being brought to trial before the puppet Senate consisting of Jedi-picked Senators. Even if somehow they did find him innocent, do you think the Jedi would stand for it? Or would they call the Senators who decided that "corrupt" and replace them with more malleable ones? It would be nothing less than a mockery of justice, a kangaroo court.

    Supporting a Jedi oligarchy seems to me to be a much better warning against the dangers of giving up democracy. At least most viewers see the problem with giving up all democratic authority to Palpatine in the name of peace and order. The Jedi oligarchy, with its deceptively appealing use of "good guys in absolute control", is no less insidious.

    I choose 5. It's not ideal, but it's not as hypocritical as the rest.

    Although 3 would actually be pretty cool.
  11. DarthGeorgeBush Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 1

    its like talking to a wall

    you try to have an intelligent conversation, and are almost taken down to the same level...




    First you need a good topic to have an intelligent conversation. Nothing is intelligent about this one so why waste braincells on it. Talking about his Destiny when we already know his destiny because we already know how it ends is not worth a thought
  12. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    PADMELUVA:

    ""pathetic lifefrom" was in reference to jar-jar, who up until that point had proven himself to be nothing short of an idiot."

    And Anakin.

    "yes, that was mighty cold of obi wan, but that was meant to show his lack of maturity at the time, and should not have been interpreted as a complete disregard of non jedi life. obi wan seems to hold an incredible amount of respect for senator amidala, senator organa and the lars's. after all he puts the galaxies future hope in the hands of non-jedi."

    Actually, he doesn't. He despises and distrusts all politicians.

    "and uncivilized is in reference to weapons, not people."

    Uncivilized weaponry used by....non-Jedi.

    "okay, he chops off the hadn of SOMEONE WHO WAS TRYING TO KILL HIM! what should he have done? he didnt cut off the hadn of an innocent bystandard, he cut off the hand of an attempted murderer. if a cop arrests someone in the middle of a bar, wouldnt they act similarly to the assembled patrons? would you charcterized that reaction as "cop elitism.?"i cant even believe you tried to pass that off as "jedi elitism""

    I didn't try to pass it off as Jedi elitism. The fact that Anakin justifies it as "Jedi business" seems to make it entirely alright to chop off an assassin's hand, drag her outside into a back alley, and interrogate her.

    "and about selling drugs...are they not wrong? isnt he better off without them? if he gets off drugs, he probably wont be so weak minded. (okay, so wether or not hes better off with out the drugs is debatable, but for the sake of argument, lets say yes)"

    So forcibly altering someone's mind is alright with you? :)

    "the jedi were always a neutral party, even if their allegiance was to the senate. they were doing the senate, and the republic a compassionate favor by fighing in the war."

    Oh yes, a favor by instantaneously becoming the commanders of the armies of the Republic. As Janissaries, it's their job to fight in war, regardless of what they say.

    "and so what if only jedi were allowed to enter the temple? its their temple! its a holy spiritual place, and the general public should respect that. that may all be a mute point...i dont recall in the movies any character saying the temple was off limits to non-jedi."

    It is, though.
  13. SearchYourFeelings Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2005
    Number 3 is the coolest options.
    Anakin should have kicked Palpantines ass( forget about all his promises about immortality), send him back to hell and become the emperor. Then he could create a fake parlament that will always agree with him and appoint Obi-Wan as a parlament leader.
    If just Obi-Wan and PPadme could be more pragmatic...
  14. Darth_Plissken Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2005
    star 1
    Perhaps Anakin should have bested count Dooku on the senate floor, in the presence of the entire senate along with Palpatine as well. He should have driven his lightsaber through Dooku's jaw and then unleashed a powerful force-yell, causing the floor to be rent in twain. Then, Luke could have grown up with Leiyah on Arrakis after Anakin flees into the desert, too much in agony over the loss of his sweet Chani, dying during childbirth.

    Then, Luke could learn how to become one with the "little makers" and rule the Galaxy from the innards of a sandworm as a mutated symbiotic lifeform than can control the spice...er..the force, I mean. ;)
  15. Jedi_Dondie Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Personally i chose:
    # 1.Mace Windu killing Palpatine, the Jedi Order taking over control
    of the Republic, and getting rid of Sentors and appointing better
    ones.
  16. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "The fact that Anakin justifies it as "Jedi business" seems to make it entirely alright to chop off an assassin's hand, drag her outside into a back alley, and interrogate her."

    i dont see your point, whats wrong with that? the are a legitamte law enforcing order.

    she had proven herself deadly! she had tried to kill a senator....twice, and was now attempting to kill obi wan. he didnt KILL her. cutting off her hand was the only way to defend himself in the situation.

    think of it like this. two cops are chasing an assassin, and track her to a bar. she tries to sneak up on one of them, with her gun out and ready to shoot the cop in the back! his only hope of defending himself, is to subdue her. he turns around and shoots her in the shoulder (or any other body part that is not vital). his partner, in order to calm the bar patrons, tells them its merely cop business.

    the two cops take her to the back alley, and begin asking her asking her who she is working for, while waiting for back up.

    seriously? you find fault with his action...but defend the use of the death star.
  17. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "Actually, he doesn't. He despises and distrusts all politicians."

    your generalizing. he doenst like politicans, but senator amidala seems to be an exception. show me in the movies, where it says he despises senator amidala, i'd love to see that one.
    and why does he make en exception for padme? because she is honest and non-corrupt. and so what if he doesnt like politicans? i dont either, does that make me an elitist? no, it just means i've been disenfranchized by partisan bickering, but i suppose thats a topic for another discussion.
  18. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "Uncivilized weaponry used by....non-Jedi."

    its a metaphore. he views gg as a coward, and ggs' weaponry is an extension of his personal attributes.

    you try to argue that the republic was an elitist society, where all non-jedi were descriminated against? the jedi were the minority, and were a religious sect. they didnt rule, and didnt pass their own laws that they expected the non-jedi populous to obey. how is that elitist? if anything, its the opposite.
  19. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "Oh yes, a favor by instantaneously becoming the commanders of the armies of the Republic. As Janissaries, it's their job to fight in war, regardless of what they say."

    your comments are full of contraditions.

    you criticize the jedi for being "secret police", yet expect them to be a the mercy of the leader? they are suppose to fight because its their duty, eh? as Jannissaries? they shouldnt question their leader type of thing? basically you want them completly at the mercy of the chancellor? they should fight when told to fight, but expect nothing in return, such as the continuation of democracy?

    it is a favor. the jedi code forbids fighting in wars, yet they decide to fight because they feel they must defend the morals of the republic, AND they have no other way of defending peace, especially when a war is threatening to engulf the whole galaxy.
  20. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "So forcibly altering someone's mind is alright with you?"

    who says the change was permanent? gl used it to merely show a connection between episode 2 and episode 4. obi wan was getting someone off of his back, AND doing him a favor at the same time, by at least showing him that there was a better life out there.



    is enforcing the will of a single leader onto the people through a doctrine of fear and an entire navy of armed ships, alright with you?
  21. LordBlack Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 3
    I would like to say 3. The jedi are too out dated and out of touch, and the senate will always be corupt. Anakin would sort out those who would disrupt peace while Padme would help and guide the galaxy for a better future.
  22. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    "seriously? you find fault with his action...but defend the use of the death star."

    The use of the Death Star was against a planet full of traitors, so yes.

    "your generalizing."

    Yes, that's exactly what Anakin tells him.

    "he doenst like politicans, but senator amidala seems to be an exception."

    Nope. The whole arguement they have over politics starts when Obi-Wan derides Amidala for being a politican.

    "and so what if he doesnt like politicans? i dont either, does that make me an elitist? no, it just means i've been disenfranchized by partisan bickering, but i suppose thats a topic for another discussion."

    [face_laugh]

    Yes, it's quite good for the law enforcement branch of the Republic to not like the politicans who run it.

    "its a metaphore. he views gg as a coward, and ggs' weaponry is an extension of his personal attributes."

    So everyone who uses a blaster is a coward, eh?

    "you try to argue that the republic was an elitist society, where all non-jedi were descriminated against?"

    No, learn to read my arguements.

    "the jedi were the minority, and were a religious sect. they didnt rule, and didnt pass their own laws that they expected the non-jedi populous to obey. how is that elitist? if anything, its the opposite."

    It's what would have happened should the Jedi have succeeded in their coup.

    "you criticize the jedi for being "secret police", yet expect them to be a the mercy of the leader?"

    :rolleyes: No, I criticize them as a secret police force because they aren't at the mercy of the leaders. They openly flaunt the authority of the elected leadership

    "they are suppose to fight because its their duty, eh? as Jannissaries? they shouldnt question their leader type of thing? basically you want them completly at the mercy of the chancellor? they should fight when told to fight, but expect nothing in return, such as the continuation of democracy?"

    They're part of the Republic government structure. They have to follow the Supreme Chancellor. He's the, you know, LEADER of the Republic.

    :rolleyes:

    "it is a favor."

    It's their job.

    "the jedi code forbids fighting in wars"

    Post proof or retract.

    "who says the change was permanent?"

    No one.

    "is enforcing the will of a single leader onto the people through a doctrine of fear and an entire navy of armed ships, alright with you?"

    They didn't seem to mind.

    And again, stop posting three times to answer a single person. There's an edit button for a reason.
  23. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    ""seriously? you find fault with his action...but defend the use of the death star."

    The use of the Death Star was against a planet full of traitors, so yes. "

    i ask you to post prook that alderaan was full of traitors. now im not going to argue that princess leia and her father aren't traitors, because they are, but are the rest of the people of alderaan guilty? surly not! there is no proof to show that alderaan, including its population, numbering in the millions, openly supported the alliance. even if they are sympathizers, sympathy does not conote treason. the fact that the empire is willing to sacrifice millions of law-abiding, innocent until proven guilty citizens, shows the the use of the death star is evil.

    "Nope. The whole arguement they have over politics starts when Obi-Wan derides Amidala for being a politican."

    you cannot judge a character on one scene, and you are completly ignoring episode 3.
    "our allegiance is to the senate, not to its leader"
    obi wan may have a disdain for politicans, but he also is able to rationalize that is the senators who should be making the laws. by the time of episode 3, obi wan has come to trust some politicians more than others, at least in the case of bail organa and padme amidala.
    and in the end, wasnt obi wan right to have a general mistrust of politicians? wasnt it the corruption in the senate that lead to a dictatorship, that was ruled by self-serving beuracrats? oh never mind, i forgot you actually like the idea of a police state run by a dictator...

    "So everyone who uses a blaster is a coward, eh?"
    when obi wan says that he is using it to refer to general grivous. seriously your taking it to extremes me thinks. it was put in there for characterization and to connect this to episode 4..and no not to characterize him as an elitist. when he uses it in ANH, he is doing it to recall more enlightened days, when diplomacy settled conflicts, not the end of an imperial troops' blaster.

    "It's what would have happened should the Jedi have succeeded in their coup."
    the jedi say they regret having to temporarily take over the senate, and they mean it...why? because unlike palpatine, they dont long to rule. and they werent going to merely remove senators. they were going to expose them of corruption, so that the courts and senate would have no choice but to remove them. i know i am assuming alot in this statment, but considering that the jedi use a thing called "the force" and not "the darkside" im willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    " No, I criticize them as a secret police force because they aren't at the mercy of the leaders. They openly flaunt the authority of the elected leadership"

    the republic seemed to be okay with the fact that the order was remarkably autonomous...until palaptine lied to the senate and used the jedi as scapegoats. until he brandished them as traitors, and failed to tell them he instigated the war himself in the fist place.

    " Post proof or retract. "

    "i can only protect you, i cant fight a war for you"
    "we are keepers of the peace-not soldiers"

    to me this shows jdi will avoid war at all costs, unless its necessary. using that logic you can see, that fighting in the clone wars was their choice, and was not mandated by their code, or an existing republic law.

    "They didn't seem to mind"

    in episode 3...before democracy was abolished, before the military ran a muck, before regional governors excercized considerable influence over people who didnt even elect them. the fact that sympathy was beginging to build in the senate, is proof that the people were beggining to question the rule of their leaders. so i would have to say...they did mind.






  24. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    "i ask you to post prook that alderaan was full of traitors. now im not going to argue that princess leia and her father aren't traitors, because they are, but are the rest of the people of alderaan guilty? surly not! there is no proof to show that alderaan, including its population, numbering in the millions, openly supported the alliance. even if they are sympathizers, sympathy does not conote treason. the fact that the empire is willing to sacrifice millions of law-abiding, innocent until proven guilty citizens, shows the the use of the death star is evil."

    Prook? :p

    Question for you. Is the Empire evil because it blew up Alderaan and murdered Jawas and the Lars family?

    "you cannot judge a character on one scene,"

    Sure you can.

    "and you are completly ignoring episode 3."

    Strange that I would be doing so in an Episode 3 forum o_O

    He only trusts Senator Organa because he is the only one that hasn't tried taking a shot at him.

    ""our allegiance is to the senate, not to its leader""

    A Senate, mind you, controlled by the one they try to depose.

    obi wan may have a disdain for politicans, but he also is able to rationalize that is the senators who should be making the laws. by the time of episode 3, obi wan has come to trust some politicians more than others, at least in the case of bail organa and padme amidala.
    and in the end, wasnt obi wan right to have a general mistrust of politicians? wasnt it the corruption in the senate that lead to a dictatorship, that was ruled by self-serving beuracrats?[/i]"

    So he serves those which he doesn't trust, eh?

    "oh never mind, i forgot you actually like the idea of a police state run by a dictator..."

    As oppossed to a blunderingly ineffective beurocracy catering to the whims of an ignorant mob where super-corporations can actually fight their own wars of aggression?

    Do you really even know what a dictator is? The Senate and Jedi were quite willing to have him become one, until he started trying to control them.

    "when obi wan says that he is using it to refer to general grivous. seriously your taking it to extremes me thinks. it was put in there for characterization and to connect this to episode 4..and no not to characterize him as an elitist."

    Regardless of author's intent, he associates blasters with barbarity.

    "when he uses it in ANH, he is doing it to recall more enlightened days, when diplomacy settled conflicts, not the end of an imperial troops' blaster."

    Oh yes, so a much more "elegant" time where limbs went flying and cutting a sentient in half was regular.

    "the jedi say they regret having to temporarily take over the senate, and they mean it...why? because unlike palpatine, they dont long to rule. and they werent going to merely remove senators. they were going to expose them of corruption, so that the courts and senate would have no choice but to remove them. i know i am assuming alot in this statment, but considering that the jedi use a thing called "the force" and not "the darkside" im willing to give them the benefit of the doubt."

    Funny, I seem to recall the Dark Side being half of the Force :)

    "the republic seemed to be okay with the fact that the order was remarkably autonomous...until palaptine lied to the senate and used the jedi as scapegoats."

    Of course, because they had come to rely upon the Jedi as their enforcers...until the Jedi attempted a coup :)

    "until he brandished them as traitors,"

    Until they walked into his office and tried to kill him.

    "and failed to tell them he instigated the war himself in the fist place."

    Instigated it or not is debatable. The CIS was quite sure in the justness of its cause.

    ""i can only protect you, i cant fight a war for you""

    Out of context. A Jedi Master cannot take down an entire army on his own.

    ""we are keepers of the peace-not soldiers""

    And yet they're trained from infancy to use lightsabers that can cut off a sentient's limb w
  25. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "Democracy never existed in the Republic. Anyone who believes it did is ignorant. The Senate was not disolved until prominent members began openly undermining the stability of the Empire. The Jedi were not branded traitors until they tried to overthrow the legitimate government of the Republic. The Rebellion is a terrorist organization founded by power-hungry Senators, its ranks filled with criminals, drug-runners, and cultists"

    give me proof that shows democracy didnt exist. are you calling the jedi ignorant?
    "my allegiance is to the republic..to democracy!"

    and by saying democracy didnt exist, you just defeated your own arguments, in which you repeatedly say that palpatine was elected into office "through every proper channel and procedure" or something to that effect. so if democracy didnt exist, then palpatine's rule isnt legitimate.

    the alliance was founded by senators who realized that a dictatorship could only lead to one place...tyranny. they didnt actually wage war until the emperor's attrocities became hard to ignore. they were concerned that palaptine's new order could lead to an abuse of power...which it did.


    and how can you possibly defend the destruction of alderaan? honestly, try and justify how killing millions of innocent people was right. i challenge you. destroy millions of law abiding citizens, just to punnish 2 or 3 leaders? thats tyrannical, thats evil. a complete disregard for the people that it should be helping.

    "The Senate was not disolved until prominent members began openly undermining the stability of the Empire."
    so just because they disagee means they need to be silenced. yah, that totally justifies the emperor's move. it was a system of checks and balances, and suddenly because one department tries to rein in antother, that justifies them being done away with? hardly...
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