What is best for the GALAXY?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by darth-sinister, Apr 9, 2005.

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  1. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "They fought because they swore to serve the Republic."

    then do you not see the hypocricy inherent in palpatine's words? he knows the jedi will serve him and the republic faithfully, yet he plans to betray them from the get go, because he knows they wont like the idea of a dictatorship?
  2. JTO Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2005
  3. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    "give me proof that shows democracy didnt exist. are you calling the jedi ignorant?"

    I'll give you a hint. It's in the Republic's name.

    "and by saying democracy didnt exist, you just defeated your own arguments, in which you repeatedly say that palpatine was elected into office "through every proper channel and procedure" or something to that effect. so if democracy didnt exist, then palpatine's rule isnt legitimate."

    He is the legitimate leader. How does a lack of democracy in a government that was never a democracy make it any less legitimate?

    "the alliance was founded by senators who realized that a dictatorship could only lead to one place...tyranny. they didnt actually wage war until the emperor's attrocities became hard to ignore. they were concerned that palaptine's new order could lead to an abuse of power...which it did."

    An abuse of power that they weren't a part of. Believe it or not, the Senators rebelled because they no longer held power in their corpulent hands.

    "and how can you possibly defend the destruction of alderaan? honestly, try and justify how killing millions of innocent people was right. i challenge you. destroy millions of law abiding citizens, just to punnish 2 or 3 leaders? thats tyrannical, thats evil. a complete disregard for the people that it should be helping."

    Before I proceed, do you believe the Empire is evil because of its destruction of Alderaan? A simply yes or no will suffice.

    "so just because they disagee means they need to be silenced. yah, that totally justifies the emperor's move. it was a system of checks and balances, and suddenly because one department tries to rein in antother, that justifies them being done away with? hardly..."

    Stealing military information, firing on Imperial vessels, and killing Imperial troops could indeed be considered treason. Forming anarchist terrorist organizations might be too, but you never know.

    "then do you not see the hypocricy inherent in palpatine's words? he knows the jedi will serve him and the republic faithfully, yet he plans to betray them from the get go, because he knows they wont like the idea of a dictatorship?"

    You must not have been paying attention to that part where they try to kill Palpatine.

    You must also not know what a dictator is, because Palpatine's been a dictator since the end of AOTC, and yet it was still a republic. The Empire was still a republic until ANH.
  4. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    help me JTO, your my only hope!


    there are a few people on this board arguing craaazy points. just read the posts on the past page.
  5. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    yes i do believe the destruction of alderaan was evil....and before you start i know your rebudle

    "tarkin was acting alone...vader later told so and so in the radio drama that the emperor would never have approved the destruction of a core world...blah blah blah"

    thats all eu my friend, so it isnt canon. tarkin was acting with the authority of the emperor, and palpatine saw this regional governor as a loyal and obediant servant.

    do you belive the slaughter of the jawas was evil, then trying to cover it seem like the sandpeople did it?obviously the empire wants good PR, even if its to the detrimate of another group.

    do you believe the slaughter of the lars' was evil? because i sure do.

    "You must not have been paying attention to that part where they try to kill Palpatine."
    you must have missed the part where mace windu gives the chancellor two chances to surrender, the second coming AFTER palpatine killed 3 masters unprovoked. when mace decides to kill the chancellor because he is too dangerous, it is no longer about politics. it is no longer about legal matters and procedures, its about good v. evil. bringers of light v. the bringers of darkness, things that secular law just cant touch.

    and what about order 66? defend that!

    so what if 4 masters tried to kill him....should the rest of the order be judged by their actions? what if the rest of the order had no idea of mace's "treachery?" weren't they denied their rights as citizens to fair trials?

  6. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    "yes i do believe the destruction of alderaan was evil....and before you start i know your rebudle"

    Alright, good to make sure.

    Because if the Empire is evil because of the actions of its leaders, then Alderaan is treasonous because of the actions of its leaders.

    Not to mention the people of Alderaan are Imperials, so they're evil ;)
  7. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    well let me clarify myself

    the imperial leaders are indeed evil. i never said the whole empire. when i say empire it is implied (or at least is should be) that i am speaking of palpatine, tarkin, vader, and other military cronies who enforce unfair laws, and expect no dissention. thats why they must be toppled. the alliance doesnt go out of its way to kill innocents like the empire.
  8. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    Sure it does.

    Do you have any idea how many innocent construction workers, contractors, sub-contractors, technicians, and engineers Luke murdered in AHN :p

    "you must have missed the part where mace windu gives the chancellor two chances to surrender, the second coming AFTER palpatine killed 3 masters unprovoked."

    I saw it.

    "when mace decides to kill the chancellor because he is too dangerous, it is no longer about politics. it is no longer about legal matters and procedures, its about good v. evil. bringers of light v. the bringers of darkness, things that secular law just cant touch."

    He knew from the start Palpatine controlled the Senate and the courts. What good would it have done them to arrest him then? It's a very stupid oversight by Lucas.

    "and what about order 66? defend that!"

    Okay.

    After four prominent members of the Jedi Council, the Council that all Jedi are compliant to, Palpatine decides to execute the Jedi traitors at the front lines before they can learn of their masters' coup and carry on the insurgency.

    All Jedi that were willing to remain loyal followers of the Republic/Empire stayed alive.

    "so what if 4 masters tried to kill him....should the rest of the order be judged by their actions?"

    By your logic, yes.

    "what if the rest of the order had no idea of mace's "treachery?" weren't they denied their rights as citizens to fair trials?"

    *shrug* They're in the military. Fair trials don't apply there.
  9. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "All Jedi that were willing to remain loyal followers of the Republic/Empire stayed alive"

    palpatine never gives individual jedi a chance, save anakin

    "By your logic, yes."

    if you read correctly, you will see i have clarified my post, so no, that is not my logic. now answer the question.


    " *shrug* They're in the military. Fair trials don't apply there. "

    oh but they do, and should.

    the annhilation of the jedi via order 66 is enexcusable, and shows the illegal actions of the emperor, and his crimes against fundamental rights.


  10. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    and whats your stance on the murders of the lars' family and the slaughter of the jawas?
  11. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    "palpatine never gives individual jedi a chance, save anakin"

    Wrongo. :p

    "By your logic, yes."

    "if you read correctly, you will see i have clarified my post,"

    After the fact, conveniently.

    "so no, that is not my logic. now answer the question."

    Then yes.

    "oh but they do, and should."

    The New Republic could learn a few things from that.

    "the annhilation of the jedi via order 66 is enexcusable, and shows the illegal actions of the emperor, and his crimes against fundamental rights."

    Apparently, he has the power to void such rights.
  12. Darth_Sidious_1983 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2005
    star 1
    As it was: 4 (with THE most powerful Force user in charge)

    However, #3 is quite interesting, with Padme as a Lady Macbeth of sorts
  13. Darth_Sidious_1983 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2005
    star 1
    Eh, comrade?????????
  14. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    "Wrongo."

    when does he allow ki adi mundi or aayla secura a chance to defend themselves? how about the younglings?

    "Apparently, he has the power to void such rights."

    just because the senate didnt punnish him for making a hasty decision, doesnt mean he had the power.

    and thats what the rebellion is all about. just because someone has the legal power to take certain actions, doesnt defend or legitimize those actions.it doesnt make them right. especially when he is going against the will of the people, and will do anything to hold onto his power.

    the alliance is about removing those in power, who have abused their positions


    and you still havent answered my question:what is your stance on the murder of the lars family, and the slaughtering of the jawas, along with the subsequent "blame it on the sandpeople" policy?
  15. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    There are Jedi that join him.

    "just because the senate didnt punnish him for making a hasty decision, doesnt mean he had the power."

    Possibly.

    "and thats what the rebellion is all about. just because someone has the legal power to take certain actions, doesnt defend or legitimize those actions. especially when he is going against the will of the people, and will do anything to hold onto his power."

    From a certain point of view, yes.

    "and you still havent answered my question:what is your stance on the murder of the lars family, and the slaughtering of the jawas, along with the subsequent "blame it on the sandpeople" policy?"

    A regrettably heavy-handed military procedure
  16. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    you avoided the question (ever think about a career in politics?)

    when does he let the order 66 jedi defend themselves? he doesnt, he casts judgment upon all of them, because of the actions of four masters.

    and eu doesnt count, so none of that "mara jade=emperor's hand" stuff
  17. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    "when does he let the order 66 jedi defend themselves? he doesnt, he casts judgment upon all of them, because of the actions of four masters."

    Yep. He had to break the back of the Jedi before they tried a coup again.

    "and eu doesnt count, so none of that "mara jade=emperor's hand" stuff"

    Not who I'm talking about, but nice try anyway.

    Regardless of your opinions of the EU, there are Jedi that join Palpatine post-ROTS.
  18. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    yes i know anakin joins him...

    he knew full and well they wernt trying to take over, he knew that they were going to expose him as a traitor and sith lord that is behind all the violence for the past 14 years. that bit about them taking over and killing senators was all a plot to get anakin to turn. he didnt really believe all the bs that was pouring out of his own mouth, because he knew it wasnt true.

    face it: he had the jedi executed because they could all later expose him as a traitor. and the fact that he didnt allow them a proper trial proves just how power hungry he was, and how he had a total disregard for the legal system, even though he often hid behind procedures, and laws.

    but why not let the other jedi at least know their leaders were "treacherous"

  19. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    Because Palpatine's not stupid.

    And there are other Jedi that join Palpatine, aside from Anakin.
  20. PADMELUVA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2004
    star 4
    again that is eu


    we can only judge things as they are in the movies

    and dooku joined before the jedi were branded as traitors. and dooku is irrelevent...why? because he was dead by the time of the supposed jedi coup, and was a traitor to both jedi and the republic.
  21. EH_Pilot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2003
    star 4
    Then you've limited yourself to a very narrow band of debate.

    I stick with option #4.
  22. StarTrek_RULES Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2005
    The republic needed to get rid of the Jedi, they were no good trying coup the Chancellor, WHat kind of democracy tries to kill their elected leader?!?!?

    Option 4 is the best because you know in the end Vader kills the emperor anyways. And the Empire is much safer in the hands of the Sith then it would be under the Jedi. Jedi taking over would be instant Civil War
  23. cypher9000 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 2
    I think most of the people who say "obviously #1!" have a very narrow minded view of the Jedi and think to one dimensionally. It is possible for good people to turn bad with good intentions. Anakin shows us this, as does Dooku, especially Dooku. Dooku seemed to want what was best for the galaxy and felt that the Sith was was the way to do it. If the Jedi took over then they would think that that is best for the galaxy, and it is very possible that they would end up becoming just as bad as the Sith without even realizing it. It's happened many times before to leaders who thought that theywere doing the right thing or the thing they were preordained to do.

    Edit: And EU is crap that Lucas himself has refuted with the prequal movies.
  24. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Well, I'm not sure how sane arguing for preserving democracy via the establishment of an undemocratic oligarchy is. ;) Option 1 is as bad as the Empire.

    Now, the people who vote for 1 do so because of the following reasons, no? The Jedi, in order to preserve the Republic, will take control of the Senate. Their wise leadership will bring peace and order to the galaxy, and put an end to corruption.

    Now replace "Jedi" with "Palpatine" above and you have Anakin and Palpatine's dialog in the prequels almost word for word.

    Just like the Republic saw it attractive to make Palpatine their leader because of the idealistic vision he offered, the idea of a Senate free of corruption due to the wise, just, and benevolent control of the Jedi sounds very enticing. Until you look closer, listen to Lucas' message about the dangers of losing a democracy, and realize that the Jedi oligarchy is a repackaged version of what Palpatine sold the Republic, just that since the Jedi are viewed as the good guys by the audience, and we know Palpatine is bad from the beginning, it sounds like a good deal.

    Now, possible counterpoints:
    - But the Jedi really are good! : Well, that's what everyone thought about Palpatine too. Not to mention that power corrupts, and the Jedi have been shown not to be all good to start with.
    - The Jedi control will only be temporary until the Senate is free from corruption. : I remember a certain other politican who took power "temporarily" to fix the Republic.
    - How can removing the corrupt Senators be bad? : Who decides what is corrupt? Taking bribes and whatnot, sure. But what about those who curry favors? Those who seek leadership and power? Would the Jedi just stop at the obvious cases of bribes? Would a Senator who has an anti-Jedi agenda be called corrupt? Could accusations of corruption, in fact, be used as a tool to get rid of anyone who disagrees with Jedi decisions? How is taking control of democratically elected Senators supposed to help democracy?

    Choosing absolute control of the government by any party (i.e. totalitarianism) is the exact thing the prequels warn against. Whether it be Jedi or Palpatine, and the purpose be bringing peace, order, an end to corruption, or whatever other high-minded ideal that has been used throughout history to justify the removal of democracy, it's the same story. Calling one better because it sounds more attractive is simply succumbing to the impulse that creates these situations in the first place.

    A powerful pseudomilitary band of supermen siezes control of a democratic arm of government, unilaterally ousts all its members who they deem to be unfit for service, and establishes themselves as the only group noble enough to lead the people. Dress that up with whatever ideals you like, it's still nothing less than a dictatorship. A rather self-righteous one, at that.

    Since when did the Empire "go out of its way to kill innocents"? With some of these posts you'd think the Empire was a bunch of cackling men who kick every puppy they see and sit around plotting how to kill Superman. Now, I agree that the Empire is a Bad Thing (even if I disagree that a Jedi oligarchy is any better), but to act like it's some cartoonish supervillain is to ignore the whole point of the Empire. It is accepted because most people see it as a good thing, and that's how it portrays itself. And do you really think the Rebellion never tried to hurt an innocent? That its members are Crusaders for the Cause of Justice and Light? It's a militia/terrorist organization. It's bound to have more than a few nuts in it, as well as people bitter with the Empire, people with misplaced anger, and in general people who see any Imperial citizen as a justifiable target. Every army has those; it's what causes war atr
  25. LordBlack Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 3
    Would PADMELUVA and EH_Pilot please get a room. If all goes well, get married. :p
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