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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

What is Christianity? How can we understand it better? What don't we understand?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by ObiWan506, Jul 18, 2006.

  1. Espaldapalabras

    Espaldapalabras Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2005
    That was a little hard to decipher, butit seems your point is that you don't see what good it does to do missionary work. Just understand that from the missionaries point of view, without the knowledge they have you are going to hell. They don't want you to go to hell, so they teach you. That is the easiest way to put it.

    Also as a missionary I was able to see people lives really change for the better when they accepted the truth into their lives. That was the most rewarding part, and now that I am back nobody could care less how many people I got in the water so if my motivation for trying to convince people to join my church I would have gotten nothing out of it.

    As for the Jeshovas Witness, I give them an A for effort, but as an LDS missionary it was funny to see them knocking doors early in the morning in a country where everyone is either cooking beans or at work, and after 4 they sit around in front of their house. Why would I walk around to get a door in my face in the morning when later that day they would be bored enough to talk to anyone? :p
     
  2. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    The Fireman - I'm surprised, I thought you'd be right there crying out for the rapture. I fundamentally disagree with your assessment of the Bible as a valid historical 'truth'. It's a record sure, but in history we are trained to treat all stories with equal scepticism and never does a historian say 'this is absolute truth' when referring to any document. It's one thing to say that there was a Jewish Kingdom under David, quite another to say that devine intervention helped him along (not a good example but you get the point).


    You appear to be confusing atheism with non-religion, or saying that atheists have no religion and as a result contain no portion of 'God's truth'. There are many religions around the world that have atheistic features, Buddhism being the most obvious, so it's seems quite unfair that you're cutting off Buddhists who arguably have more in common with Christians than any other group simply because you're prejudiced against nontheists.

    Except the former happens to be intergral to Christian missionary history, whilst the latter is nothing but a spurious emotional connection to atheists so it's not fair in the slightest (baby killing?). Nevertheless you are correct that the Crusades aren't a good comparison here if for no other reason than that statute of limitation has to have expired by now. One could bring up the damage vs benefits that Christian missionaries have brought to the Americas and Africa... but really what's the point? (Though I'm quite curious what you think the problems of Ancient Greece were)


    Except that science, as a living mechanism for understanding the world around us, surpasses the constant that is theologically derived 'knowledge'. On the one hand you have tested and verifiable facts (subject to revision upon further evidence and discovery), and on the other you have nothing more than what is essentially just opinion masquerading as a higher spiritual truth.


     
  3. geo_gnosis

    geo_gnosis Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    I'm not sure if some of those comments were directed at me, but to clarify, I never brought up the Crusades or was even thinkiing about them. I was referring to missionary efforts, not wars. And I was thinking mainly of things like, in U.S. history, the treatment of Native Americans, for instance. It wasn't enough for them to convert; they were also required to cut their hair, live in houses, take up farming, and cease most/all of their traditional ways and customs. The white missionary folks of the time actually did see themselves and their way of life as being "better" than the Indians'. And in my mind, that is a huge contrast to saber_death's assertion that missionary work is undertaken out of joy and love, and not from thinking one is "better." In my understanding, history has shown that the opposite has often been true. Missionary work often went hand-in-hand with racism, colonialism and the whole nine yards, unfortunately.

    But, in modern times, I'd hope that is not the case. I'm not out there doing Christian missionary work, so I can't speak from experience on the matter.
     
  4. LemmingLord

    LemmingLord Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Some misionaries believe you will go to hell; that's true.

    The most visible missionaries in my neck of the woods are the LDS and Jehova's Witnesses; neither of which believe you will go to hell if you don't convert.

    The LDS believe that there are degrees of heaven and the only way to reach the pinacle, the best level of heaven, is to convert and take part in certain covenents and rituals... Of course you can do this in the next life, so there really isn't any reason that I see for converting people in this life..

    The Jehova's witnesses, on the other hand, believe that we will all go back to ashes (dust to dust) and that only Jehova's Wintesses will be resurrected (or at least have a lasting resurrection..I'm vague on it at this point as my last discussino with a JW on the subject was more than a year ago).

    In any case, though, I grant you that these missionaries are under the basic assumption that your life and/or afterlife will be better if you convert. Sociologically speaking, there is a human need to "know the truth" and to have others who agree that you "know the truth." There is a further desire in humans to be a part of a community with mentors and students..And if you think it is fun being a student... Just wait until you get to be a mentor!! I think of most churches as a fraternity/sority with a religious message.
     
  5. Espaldapalabras

    Espaldapalabras Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2005
    You are putting words in my mouth. I never said athiests had no part or portion of God's truth. I said all religion does, save something like Satanism or some such nonsense. Buddhism has some great principles as well, and that is why people follow it. From my view some religions have more truth than others, but even fellow Christians who know of Christ still have doctrines of men mingled with the full truth. Athiests who proclaim there is no God and that this life is all we have are missing a huge part of eternal truth, but they can still have correct principles like caring for others.



    Mentioning the Crusades as "intergral to Christian missionary history" defines "a spurious emotional connection that is not fair in the slighest." To say so only shows your outright disgust of religion and lack of capcity of dealing fairly with ir. Also you seem to think "Christian missionaries" is some kind of monolithic group, when it is nothing of the sort. Because it is such a varied and large group, it is easy to point out the bad seeds and ignore the tremendous good that they have done. It is also interesting that when someone mentions an equally bad seed in the "field of atheism" you can deny any connection at all with them, something you fail do to your religious opponent.



    You do realize that this is nothing more than your opinion, right? You show an intolerance of religion that surpasses all but the most extreme religious fundamentalists. You don't need to agree or even like what religion teaches to respect the right and duty of those who believe in religion to try and spread it.

    I think you are making a mistake when you try to correlate the historic surpression of Indians as a purely religious exercise. The white missionary folks of the time Should just read "The white folks of the time" because the things they did had far more to do with them being white and in that time period than anything to do with religion. To look at it another way, if it wasn't for their religion they probably would have just killed them all off.

     
  6. morrison85

    morrison85 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 13, 2005
    maybe my sceptism abotu missionaring comes from only in tv seen scene. any way germany would be a rich country for missionaring
    germany has nearly as much non believers as protestans or catholics..

    whereas the us does not even show that unaffiliated.
    . btw do you think a 3rd of germans have a bad lif because they are not affiliated? should they be missionared?
     
  7. geo_gnosis

    geo_gnosis Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2006
    I think you are making a mistake when you try to correlate the historic surpression of Indians as a purely religious exercise. The white missionary folks of the time Should just read "The white folks of the time" because the things they did had far more to do with them being white and in that time period than anything to do with religion.

    I wasn't saying that the Indian situation was only about religion. It involved many factors, of which religion was one. My point was merely to give one example to show that, from my reading of history, the missionary efforts have not always been about spreading joy and compassion. Sometimes, at least in the past, they have gone hand-in-hand with other, far darker motives and goals. I would assume that, in today's day and age, the attitudes are different and, presumably, a bit more enlightened than in the colonialist past.
     
  8. Espaldapalabras

    Espaldapalabras Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2005
    I actually have an uncle that went to Germany on his mission. To be honest, in my church when it comes to countries that reject missionaries the most, Germany is at the top of the list. Because of that we don't send many there because those that are there get to knock on doors for 2 years. I don't think it used to be like that, and I don't think it is just my church, it seems like much of western Europe has rejected religion and families, which is why Muslims will inheret it. But I have never been to Europe myself. I went to a latin American country where virtually everyone said they were Catholic and was able to actually teach people. Even those that didn't agree with us respected the fact we were out trying to do God's work.
     
  9. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Well, the problem is religion is a vastly different beast in America to Europe. In Europe, it's intensely personal, even amongst heavily church going states like Finland, for example. They don't want someone bothering them on their door about a faith many probably don't see as legitimate.

    Bear in mind, that's my impression from the Europeans I know; I'm not making a statement on Mormonism itself.

    E_S
     
  10. morrison85

    morrison85 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 13, 2005
    ah both of you you are pefrctly right about your points. but i dont think muslim will inherit it they are only as you see one percent.
    and i really dont think the peole are unhappier with their lives because of being unaffiliated.
     
  11. Fist_of_Mandalore

    Fist_of_Mandalore Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2005
    I thought Finland was one of the most heavily atheist countries in the world?
     
  12. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    I don't intend to put words in your so I apologise. It just appeared to be that you were associating atheists as people without religion. I merely sought to correct the faulty assumption.

    I find it fascinating that you refer to theism and belief in an after life as being eternal truth. And atheists don't proclaim that there is no god, it's not a rejection. I no more believe your God exists than you do Odin or.

    Unless again I'm misunderstanding the content of your prose, you made another faulty assumption about atheists by saying that they believe that 'this life is all we have'. Again I would suggest glancing sideways at Buddhists. I think you're generally painting atheists with a secular humanist type of brush and not realising the full scope and diversity present.

    Except my dear friend you overlook the crucial distinction between people acting in a certain way because of their beliefs and people with beliefs acting in a certain way. The Europeans who went on the Crusades did so because they were Christians and because of their religious beliefs (not all of them of course). Stalinists didn't kill babies because of their atheistic beliefs, they did so because they were baby killing Stalinists, who also happened to be atheists. If we learnt anything from above, it was that atheists aren't monolithic.

    Guilt by association is a logical fallacy. Vegetarians aren't evil because Hitler was one. And that's what you are doing. It is not wrong however to bring up the Hitler experience in a conversation about Neo-Nazis is it?

    And it's not like I'm attacking current Christianity with the cross of the Crusades, did you not see how I said that it was no longer appropriate to invoke them?

    I hardly think it's fair to launch rhetoric at me since I never made any such connection in the first place. It was another.

    People don't have a right to try and spread their religion. They don't even have a right to believe in a particular religion. They have only the privilege to do so as human beings. Unfortunately someone comes along and interferes with that privilege when we are still developing.


    My intolerance of religion is very selective at best, and is toothless at worst. Just a few hours ago I had some missionaries come to my door and we had a very pleasant exchange about science and religion. I even g
     
  13. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    You do realize that this is nothing more than your opinion, right? You show an intolerance of religion that surpasses all but the most extreme religious fundamentalists. You don't need to agree or even like what religion teaches to respect the right and duty of those who believe in religion to try and spread it.

    No, people should be able to live in peace and quiet without being harassed by various religious cults to join their asinine beliefs. I was at the frickin' gas station pumping gas when one of these psychos walked up to me. It's downright borderline harassment the way some religions do it.
     
  14. morrison85

    morrison85 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 13, 2005
    fire ice death i share your opinion about that !
     
  15. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    No, people should be able to live in peace and quiet without being harassed by various religious cults to join their asinine beliefs. I was at the frickin' gas station pumping gas when one of these psychos walked up to me. It's downright borderline harassment the way some religions do it.

    One day long ago, when I worked in a shoe store, a ladt strolled in and picked up a shoe to look at. I greeted her and she asked me, "Have you heard the good news?"
    "What good news is that?" I asked.
    "Jesus loves you!" She replied.
    "Well now, isn't that special." I said.

    She promptly left.

    This as a time when I probably would have labeled myself an agnostic without concern over the matter rather than an atheist.
    Ther is nothing more annoying than sitting at home watching tv when a knock at the door interrupts your time with a person trying to explain to you in so many nice words that your going to Hell without there help.
    If I wanted Jesus I'd go to church.
     
  16. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    Exactly. If there's one thing they should outlaw it's that form of harassment. Sorry, you can consider it mean or whatever. But VLM nailed it. "Ther is nothing more annoying than sitting at home watching tv when a knock at the door interrupts your time with a person trying to explain to you in so many nice words that your going to Hell without there help.
    If I wanted Jesus I'd go to church."
     
  17. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon

    Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 17, 2000

    Well, America is a country that celebrates on a large scale every year the fact that some of its earliest settlers were pilgrims in a festival whose very name carries undertones of a belief that this continent was divinely bestowed upon these pilgrims (Thanksgiving).
     
  18. WormieSaber

    WormieSaber Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 22, 2000
    You don't need to fully understand Christianity. Faith isn't necessarily about the spoken word. Faith is spiritual, so your understanding may not be on a level that is expressed in words. So be profound, because God is profound.
     
  19. Dark Lady Mara

    Dark Lady Mara Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 1999
    Yes, but the politicians who declared Thanksgiving a national holiday were, almost to a man, deists. A lot of Americans forget that.
     
  20. Darth_Asabrush

    Darth_Asabrush Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2000
    What if "Faith" is built on a lie or misconception?
     
  21. morrison85

    morrison85 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 13, 2005
    its not a national holiday here...its not church related at all i think here.
     
  22. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Not true.

    Thanksgiving (as an annual holiday) started during the Lincoln presidency. Previous presidents had proclaimed individual days of thanksgiving, but the actual national holiday didn't come until Lincoln.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  23. Espaldapalabras

    Espaldapalabras Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2005
    I'm not crazy about people trying to sell me things, but I don't call it harassment when I get approached in the mall, the grocery store, see ads on TV, door to door salesmen, ect. Personally I would much rather be approached by someone who actually cares about me than somebody trying to take my money. Missionaries don't cold call you, and if they knock on your door it isn't harassment, you tell them to go away or slam the door in their face, and they go away if you don't want to talk to them.

    Would you object if scientists who thought the world was catastrophically warming went around and knocked on your door to tell you so?

    You might think science is the only truth, but is your contempt for religion so important that you must deny them the right to speak? Those who spread religious beliefs are much less invasive than those who spread other ideas, and have far better motives. As much as you would like to not hear about it, does that really justify limiting the marketplace of ideas?

    Guilt by association is a logical fallacy. Vegetarians aren't evil because Hitler was one. And that's what you are doing. It is not wrong however to bring up the Hitler experience in a conversation about Neo-Nazis is it?

    I am glad you got my point that guilt by association is a logical fallacy, and that bringing up the evil actions of medieval Christians has nothing to do with modern Christians, especially those Christians like me whose only similiarity with such medieval Christians is a belief in Christ (and eating meat). Also, you just Godwined yourself.
     
  24. Fire_Ice_Death

    Fire_Ice_Death Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2001
    I'm not crazy about people trying to sell me things, but I don't call it harassment when I get approached in the mall, the grocery store, see ads on TV, door to door salesmen, ect. Personally I would much rather be approached by someone who actually cares about me than somebody trying to take my money. Missionaries don't cold call you, and if they knock on your door it isn't harassment, you tell them to go away or slam the door in their face, and they go away if you don't want to talk to them.

    Easy to say, but they don't take a hint. I don't care if they 'care' for me. And in fact I can prove that they don't as their sole objective in approaching you is to 'add one more to the flock' so it's really a numbers game for those bunch of psychos. And yes, they are psychotic.

    Would you object if scientists who thought the world was catastrophically warming went around and knocked on your door to tell you so?

    Yes I would. No matter how well-intentioned anyone that tries to share their view with you while you unwittingly open your door or are approached by them is worthy of contempt. If you have to resort to such tactics your worldview isn't worth listening to.

    You might think science is the only truth, but is your contempt for religion so important that you must deny them the right to speak?

    You mistake my contempt for jerks to be contempt for religion. It's not. My contempt for them stems from their tactics and personally, yes, I would deny them the right to 'share' their particular brand of insanity with me, because if I wanted to join their cult I would have already done so. Simple: Don't pester me with your nonsense.

    Those who spread religious beliefs are much less invasive than those who spread other ideas, and have far better motives.

    From your point of view. I don't think their motives are any better than those of scientologists trying to 'share' their views. It's mainly a numbers game for these people and my 'salvation' is not first and foremost on their mind. As if such a stupid concept could ever exist, but such as it is they think 'salvation' will make you a better person. Yes, denying human characteristics is surely a smart thing to do. No, there's a bottom where no one envies someone and that bottom is these people.

    As much as you would like to not hear about it, does that really justify limiting the marketplace of ideas?

    Yes it does if those ideas are 1) silly and 2) people aren't susceptible. It's a waste of time for all involved.
     
  25. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Would you object if scientists who thought the world was catastrophically warming went around and knocked on your door to tell you so?

    I've had no less than two Jehovah's Witnesses and one group of Christians knock on my front door in my life. Not once has a rocket scientist come knocking on my door to explain to me the need for a better pre-burn system on liquid fuel rockets so we can double the IsP.

    Ya know, maybe the JH's are on to something. Maybe someone should start leaving pamphlets with basic science topics explained on them.

    NOPE. It would be just another annoyance on my way in or out of store finding a piece of paper tucked under my windshield wiper.