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What is so BAD about the love dialogue/acting between Anakin and Padmé?

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by tun_dot_com, Mar 9, 2003.

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  1. Shelley

    Shelley Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Sep 9, 2001
    So anyone who solely bases their entertainment on dialogue and acting alone is limiting themselves on the enjoynment of a film and unfortunately many who claim to be frustrated with AOTC suffer from this limited view.

    There are movies with good acting that I have flat-out hated. Conversely, there have been movies with bad acting that I've liked.

    Besides which, what's good acting to one person is not necessarily good acting to another.

    Likewise for dialogue. People point to Lawrence Kasdan as writing great dialogue and say Lucas should've brought him back to write the PT (he tried; Kasdan said no). IMO he was a good fit for the OT, because his rapid-fire, snappy style fit what Lucas wanted for those movies. However, I do not care for his stuff outside of his collaborations with Lucas. The dialogue in "The Big Chill" is too polished, too witty for my taste. You can almost see the neon signs pointing to it: "Hey! Oscar nomination committee! Look!"
     
  2. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

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    Feb 22, 1999
    "Lucas should've brought him back to write the PT (he tried; Kasdan said no)."

    Yeah, but he asked him a week before TPM started filming.

    So does everyone really beleive that at the time GL thought "well in this trilogy they talk like this, but in the prequels they will talk all fancy"? All the interviews I've read suggest Lucas never intended to make the PT until well after 1990, and that the episode numbers beginning with 4 just to harken back to the old serials, the idea that the story was so big, you could never possibly see all of it.

    I'm still curious why they don't talk in the same style in TPM as they do in AOTC.
     
  3. Obi-Can

    Obi-Can Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Good post as always Shadow.

    Since you took care of the faulty plot line and characterization. I will comment on the acting.

    What I found bad about the acting with the love story is everything. The worst however was Natalie, for one thing her speaking voice was way too childish to be taken seriously as an ex-queen and senator. She has no power to her voice and fails to convince me that she could rally the masses behind her, let alone the senate. When I compare her persona and screen presence to someone like Princess Leia (Carry Fisher)the weakness is even more pronounced. Leia could rally the troops with her power and charisma, not Padme.

    As far as her acting in the love scenes, it was stiff and sounded like she was reading lines (poorly). She seemed more natural in the meadow scene and the refugee ship, but the rest were bad. She also seemed to be bored with it all, there was no passion at all in her performance.

    I think the opposite could be said about Hayden, he seemed to fail on the side of over acting. People defend him by saying he's supposed to look inexperienced and nervouse, but instead you can see him forcing the performance and spouting lines that you can tell he's not comfortable saying(these are his words after all, he may stumble over them but he should be comfortable with the lines//granted its bad dialogue but the other actors pull it off). Even the physical acting (gestures, looks etc...)is not done well. For example: the scene where Padme tells him "to stop looking at her like that." Now I dont believe that George intended that look to be a leer, but thats how it comes off. So when Padme tells him "not to look at her like that" it makes Anakin come off as being creepy and the audience dislike him rather than sympathize with his love sickness,passion etc..., which I think was the real intent. IMO of course.
    ***Edited In*****
    But what you over look is that the story means for these two to have bad acting and dialogue.

    Tun,
    You aren't serious here. George meant for Natalie and Hayden to give poor performances and that he himself purposefully wrote bad dialogue? To show their inexperience at love???.

    I disagree, it's bad acting because they arent good enough actors to overcome bad dialogue. I think the whole movie is full of bad dialogue, but in many cases it doesn't diminish the scenes because the actors are experienced enough to know how to overcome it.
     
  4. SlowLearner

    SlowLearner Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Aug 7, 2002
    I'm still curious why they don't talk in the same style in TPM as they do in AOTC.

    What do you mean? ?[face_plain] I didn't notice any difference in the style of speech for TPM and AOTC.

    As far as the formal speech found in the PT, I have no problem with it. After all, it kinda matches the way Darth Vader, Palpy, and Ben speak in the OT. They weren't exactly spewing out slang and using casual speech so it makes sense that they didn't talk that way in their younger years either.

    Also, I'm a big fan of the love story. It happens to be my favorite part of AOTC. My only complaint is that there wasn't enough of it. :)
     
  5. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    Yeah the love story would have been better if it had been more developed. GL wants to be a bit different do one episode as a love story with the conflict in the back ground, I can live with that, but its very uneven the way its done, we are missing crucial steps in their relationship.

    Its as I said, when did Padme fall in love with Anakin. (I listed the possibilities earlier)

    As for how Ben and Vader speak, I see what you are saying, but this is just taking things too far. And as I've always said, quality is everything. Much of the LOTR dialogue is also in a very formal tongue, but it is still brought down to a very economic and conversational level compared to how it is in the books. The actors beleive in the words and it comes across.

    I don't want to knock GL for his dialogue, its tough to write and its definitly the hardest part for me when I'm writing. But what I don't understand is why GL who admits that he hates writing dialogue, why make sucha dialogue heavy episode? Why not get someone really strong with dialogue to write the script?


    Going back to your comments about the PT characters that survive into the OT. Old ben had a sense of whimsy, a charm, PT obi-wan is very very cold except for his scene with Dexter which is what he should have been like throughout. As for Vader, I think its fairly safe to say that he is dehumanized, and that there is no need for Anakin to talk exactly like Vader, if anything it shows his transformation all the more dramatically to have him be more human before the armour goes on. James Earl Jones himself said that GL told him that Vader does not speak with his mouth, and that his helmet reads his thoughts and articualtes them for him, which is why Vader speaks the way he does. When his helmet comes off he speaks considerably differently. True there is a hint of formality still, no problem with that, but still very human.

    I have to point out Anakin and Obi-wan arguing on the gunship. This is the best scene of the movie acting wise. There is emotion from both men, the dialogue works, its snappy their is conviction in their performances, I beleive in Anakin and obi-wan for the first time in the whole movie because of this scene. Theya ren't saying 'nerfherder' or using slang like Han, but their dialogue is human, and spoken with passion and belief in the material.

    GL has stated uncountable times that SW is not about the dialogue its a story told through images and music. So what happened to this simple and noble philosopy? This movie is so dialogue heavy I have a lot of trouble GL had anything to do with AOTC, it lacks his usual knack for pacing, and his ever famous "faster more intense"

    Don't tell us Anakin loves Padme, show us. Glances can say so much more then grand speeches.

    Don't tell us Anakin is arrogant and reckless, show us. Based on their actions and attitude alone, obi-wan is far more reckless and arrogant.

    And especially with Padme, having her just say that she is inlove with Anakin does not suffice, if you simply cut this little admission there would be no indication what so ever that she felt that way.
     
  6. JediHunterCommand

    JediHunterCommand Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Feb 2, 2003
    At the rate things are going, I think both sides will have to simply agree to disagree and let the matter rest.

    As I've said before, I didn't mind the love story because I'm a romantic at heart and like seeing people in love. (Especially doomed romances. I'm a big fan of the whole Romeo and Juliet phenomenon.) But I really doubt that I could persuade anyone who didn't like the story. And vice versa.

    Attacking the other side is just low.
     
  7. Masterkyp44

    Masterkyp44 Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jul 20, 2002
    I still think the dialogue was fine in AOTC. I'm surprised noone mentions the dialogue between Padme and Anakin in his confession scene about the killing of the sand people. I thought this dialogue was delivered very well by anakin, and that scene gives me chills everytime. One of the most powerful scenes in all of Star Wars. IMHO. I know some people think padme's dialogue wasn't good but to me she came across very clearly as shocked and didn't really know what to say.
     
  8. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2000
    >>I'm surprised noone mentions the dialogue between Padme and Anakin in his confession scene about the killing of the sand people.<<

    Actually, I think Rebel Scum has pointed to that scene a couple times already. Though it's not really part of the love story, so to speak, so thats why it hasn't been referred to as oftn as the fireplace scene, etc.

    While I agree with you that his confession was delivered well, I also agree with RS's point that Padme-the-pacifist was a little too forgiving about the whole thing.
     
  9. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

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    Feb 22, 1999
    Exactly, but don't get me wrong, Anakin is great in the scene, and its one of the bst ones in the movie, the lien they added for Padme in the dvd is what really ruined it for me, and i don't realy like the part about fixing things at the beginning.

    Padme is weak in the scene. (Why does she ask him what's wrong? Isn't it obvious? His mom was just murdered) but Anakin is very good overall, the music is also quite chilling.

    And people say I won't acknowledge anything good in AOTC. :p

    "As I've said before, I didn't mind the love story because I'm a romantic at heart and like seeing people in love."

    I think I'm a pretty romantic guy, I proposed to my lovely bride to be less then two weeks after we started going out. I just don't feel like we are looking at 2 people in love onscreen. If anythijng I find the non-romantic scenes a lot more romantic and natural. I also think the padme's aprents house scene should have been left in, its her best acting and aids the romance exponentially, there's a lot of worse scenes that could of been cut to make room for that scene.

    Its a good pleasent scene, nice visuals, natural acting, no overblown annoying dialogue, helps the characters and story move forward, the only mistake GL amde with this scene was cutting it.
     
  10. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    Yeah, the Padme's parents scene should have been kept in, and they should have cut the Queen Jamilla scene to compensate, since that scene serves no purpose other than to tell us Nute is still in charge of the TF. Their argument also ruins the warming-up to Anakin Padme has in the film.
     
  11. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

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    Feb 22, 1999
    agreed, the queen jamilla scene is one of the worst in the film. I'm glad I spliced it out.
     
  12. C3POED_OUT

    C3POED_OUT Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Feb 10, 2003
    I'm not a love story kinda guy. But I like what Lucas paved out with Anakin and Padme in Clones. I simply find most cinematic takes on love to be too pristine, safe, and awfully tedious. It doesn't matter how ear-filling and poetic the love dialogue is. What really counts in my book is chemistry, and bags of it. If a filmmaker can't get across aimlessly the attraction between two lovebirds, the connection between me and what I'm seeing onscreen will distance itself. Not only did Hayden pull off the Dark Side tendencies that are a must for the themes inherent in the saga (and which I can't wait to see fully expanded in Episode III), he magnetically clinged to Natalie's energy and rapture.

    I can't see anyone else playing the roles of Anakin and Padme. That, to me, says a mouthful about how well the both of them played their respective parts.
     
  13. Charlie_Martel

    Charlie_Martel Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2001
    I think tun_dot_com is right that that the diologue suits the characters but the acting of Portman to me is inexcusible. I don't see how a politican can be emotionless even when they fall madly in love with someone. You'd think a politican that saved her own planet once would be more passionate than that. Maybe I'm wrong and Padme really is supposed to be totally emotionless. If that's the case, Lucas did make a great pick for the Padme actress [face_plain]
     
  14. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

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    Feb 22, 1999
    How come Padmes parents didn't know who anakin was when they went to their house? He did save Naboo, you would think his name was quite famous on Naboo.

    They should of had her dad being wowed to meet the famous pilot and feed Anakins ego a bit.

    "I simply find most cinematic takes on love to be too pristine, safe, and awfully tedious."

    And you don't find this true of AOTCs love story? To me you just described it to a tea. To each his own I suppose.
     
  15. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Jan 27, 2000
    In the novelization, Padme mentions to her family that Anakin was the boy who participated in the Battle of Naboo.
     
  16. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

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    Feb 22, 1999
    thats good
     
  17. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    "I don't see how a politician can be emotionless even when they fall madly in love with someone."

    Maybe its because that "very" politician was trying to deny her feelings for Anakin knowing that it is too dangerous to have a relationship with a Jedi because he could get kicked out of the Order and she would get in trouble with the Senate.

    She's also playing "hard to get" by dressing in those provocative outfits and giving Anakin mixed signals.

    Lots of girls do that in the real world.

    "when did Padme fall in love with Anakin."

    When they first reunited in her apartment, even though she pretends that she's not interested in him by calling him "that little boy from Tatooine" and your possibilities you made a few pages back had nothing to do with it.

    "Why does she ask him what's wrong?"

    Because she knows that there is something else bothering Anakin besides his mother's death.
     
  18. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    "When did Padme fall in love with Anakin?"

    When they first reunited in her apartment...


    Ah, love at first sight; the lazy writer's godsend. :p

    Seriously, one look at the whiny, unstable brat and it's "truly, deeply?" That's as forced as it gets.
     
  19. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    He wasn't acting whiny or unstable during that time nor when they were on Naboo and I don't see how you can consider that lazy writing.

    The only times Anakin does whine is when he's venting his frustrations about being held back by Obi-wan and when his mother died.
     
  20. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 23, 1999
    "I don't see how you can consider that lazy writing."

    We have a love story that only exists because the writer willed it to, not because of any organic bond between the characters. The only reason Padme loves Anakin is because the script says she does.

    Now, honestly, even if she's initially drawn to his looks, what else can she possibly see in him? He leers at her, whines at the slightest provocation, kills when he's angry, and can't see past himself. Yet, for no other reason than because the story neccessitates it, George suddenly has Padme pull a 180 and profess her true, deep love for him, a love so strong that she marries him after having known him a week.

    A good love story lets the characters fall in love. A sloppy one forces them to.
     
  21. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

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    Feb 22, 1999
    "We have a love story that only exists because the writer willed it to, not because of any organic bond between the characters. The only reason Padme loves Anakin is because the script says she does."

    Exactly, I couldn't agree more.
     
  22. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    There is more to having Padme fall in love with Anakin than just the script saying so.

    The organic bond between these characters was already established in TPM even though it isn't a romantic one but its still there so that it can be re-established in AOTC.

    What does Padme see in Anakin? He's a breath of fresh air to her because all her life, she is surrounded by so many yes-men and she sees Anakin as the first to be a "rebel without a cause" which intrigues her.

    She's also attracted by his honesty, his deep devotion to his loved ones, his willingness to do anything for her, the fact that he saved her life, and helped free her people and her home planet from the Trade Federation.

    Sure, Padme is uncomfortable by the way Anakin looks at her but only because of the fact that she's falling in love for the first time but is too afraid to show that she feels the same way he does knowing what it will do to her career and to him. She hasn't seen Anakin whine alot aside from what I already mentioned and he wasn't famous to her for being a serial killer until he brought vengeance upon the Tuskens for what he did to his mom.

    Lastly, if he couldn't see past himself then he wouldn't be so busy trying to save his mom or trying to convince Padme to fall in love with him. Padme pulled a 180 because she came close to being killed in the droid factory and that she realised that if she dies, she would never get the chance to tell Anakin how she really felt about him, hence her true, deep love confession to him.

    If this love story is forced, then so is the one between Romeo and Juliet because they fell in love and got married after knowing each other for 1 day, yet everyone considers that a good love story.
     
  23. vampire-jing

    vampire-jing Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Oct 10, 2002
    What does Padme see in Anakin? He's a breath of fresh air to her because all her life, she is surrounded by so many yes-men and she sees Anakin as the first to be a "rebel without a cause" which intrigues her.

    She's also attracted by his honesty, his deep devotion to his loved ones, his willingness to do anything for her, the fact that he saved her life, and helped free her people and her home planet from the Trade Federation.


    Well said,PMT99.Padme had a far-sighted capacity to see the good in people.
     
  24. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    "If this love story is forced, then so is the one between Romeo and Juliet because they fell in love and got married after knowing each other for 1 day, yet everyone considers that a good love story."

    True, Romeo and Juliet did rush into things, but it helps that Romeo never comes across as an obsessive, self-absorbed, homicidal creep the way Anakin does.

    Seriously, put yourself in Padme's place. A girl you briefly ran into ten years ago wanders back into your life, says she's spent the last ten years thinking only of you, launches into a whining tirade the first time you ask how she's doing, gives a eulogy where she only talks about herself, and confesses to mass murder. Do you (a) run like hell, (b) get her help, or (c) run off to Vegas at the first opportunity?
     
  25. Oakessteve

    Oakessteve Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 9, 1999
    The biggest problem I had with the love story in Attack of the Clones was that I wasn't convinced Padme felt the same way about Anakin that Anakin felt with her. Perhaps that was deliberate, and will factor in the plot of Episode III, but Natalie didn't convince me at all that she even tolerated Anakin. Hayden was completely convincing, though, but the same can't be said with Natalie. So that was my main problem with the love story in Attack of the Clones.
     
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