Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by BoromirsFan, Feb 23, 2012.
Nobody knows what would have happened. Knowing Palpatine, he'd have put a similar plan into action with someone else as his deputy.
No. That was Anakin's fault. He was the one who chose to turn to the dark side. Not Qui-Gon.
If I give you money and you decide to buy a gun with it and start killing people. Is it my fault? No, because it was your decision to do that.
It was anakin's fault from a moral point of view
However, had qui gon not freed him from watto, he would've been there for the rest of his life. And not become friends with Palpatine, who manipulated him to the darkside.
Actually, Anakin, in the books, muses on what would have happened. He's pretty certain that, as someone who could Podrace well as a child he'd have been a galactic champion as an adult, won his & Shmi's freedom, and left.
And objective point of view. Qui-Gon had no fault.
Palpatine never obliged Anakin to do anything. Anakin always had a choice. He made the wrong one, thus it was his fault.
You can no more blame Qui-Gon than Obi-Wan than Padme than the Jedi Order than the Senate than Anakin's slavery...for Anakin's fall and subsequent events. All of these things and people were intertwined and each affected and was affected by other events.
Take Sids away, though - that may be the one thing that might have made a difference.
I'm not blaming qui gon. I'm just saying that his actions led to certain bad things that happened in the future, regardless of his intentions.
Qui gon was awesome
Terms like "fault" and "messed up" are inappropriate in this case though.
Qui-Gon acted exactly as a Jedi should act who's found someone he's got reason to believe might be the Chosen One.
Sorry if I misread your post:
That's an endless strawman. You might just go back to when the galaxy was created and blame the first living being for every crime commited within the galaxy.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
I've always felt that Qui-Gon Jinn's legacy was Luke.
Luke's teachers were Obi-Wan and Yoda, but, like Qui-Gon, he rejected blind faith in the old Order and did things that were criticized by the other Masters. I think that one of Luke's most prominent character traits -- compassion -- is one of Qui-Gon's greatest strengths as well. Both are also defined (in part) by their absolute faith in Anakin despite the fact that he has done little to convince them of being worthy of such trust -- Qui-Gon entrusts to him the futures of everyone stranded on Tatooine and Luke entrusts his father with his life.
Also, I mentioned this in another thread, but I always thought Luke's lightsaber used Qui-Gon's crystal.
I imagine that Luke would have gotten it from Obi-Wan's hut because, honestly, where else would Luke get a ligthsaber crystal? I imagine that Palpatine and the Empire would want to control any large caches. But why would Obi-Wan have a random crystal? It seems likely to me that, after TPM, Obi-Wan would have kept Qui-Gon's crystal with him as a memento of his master and taken it with him when he went into hiding on Tatooine. And thus, it would have been passed on to Luke.
Qui gon made the worst decision ever by going against his jedi masters. They knew anakin's future was clouded, foreshadowing. He became darth vader and worked for the empire, dd evil things like Alderaan and much more.
Jedi crystals. I dont remember them in the movies. What am I missing?
Perhaps. Perhaps not. Palpatine didn't need Anakin to form the Empire but Anakin was the one who eventually stopped the Sith. So without Anakin's presence, things may have eventually been worse in the long run, with no one to dispose of Palpatine and with (presumably) no Luke or Leia.
Oh, they're not. It's just a piece of trivia that I happen to like and thus I include it in my Star Wars canon.
Whose idea was the crystals? Which EU author wrote it?
To respond to your quote, "Perhaps. Perhaps not. Palpatine didn't need Anakin to form the Empire but Anakin was the one who eventually stopped the Sith. So without Anakin's presence, things may have eventually been worse in the long run, with no one to dispose of Palpatine and with (presumably) no Luke or Leia.".
I had a very interesting idea.
Palpatine did need Anakin to form the empire. And, this sounds wierd, but the galaxy would've been better without luke and leia. They were the reason anakin became darth vader. When Padme was pregnant with them, he had a vision she would die in childbirth, so that's why he joined the emperor, their very existence.
Palpatine was not immortal. He would've died anyway, and nature would bring balance to the force. No one lives forever. No need for a chosen one. Unless he got immortality from darth plageius.
Here's why Palps needed anakin to form the empire. Mace windu almost defeated Palpatine in a duel, he was just about to destroy the Sith and prevent the Galactic Empire and it's 2 decade+ reign of tyranny from ever happening and being formed, but anakin sliced off windu's hand and stopped him. So, anakin saved Palpatine, the very moment that Mace windu attempted to end sidious's reign of evil, and prevent it from ever existing, once and for all.
So, it's fair to say that anakin created the empire.
Even stranger, the reason he saved Palpatine was that he could get the darkside power to save padme who was pregnant with Luke and Leia. Luke and leia's very existence created the empire, and is the very reason the empire existed, along with anakin.
I don't see how. Palpatine only told Anakin he was a Sith lord in order to tempt him. Without Anakin there, he could have simply had Order 66 proceed and have the clones attack the Jedi Temple and then falsify evidence of a Jedi Rebellion. Mace Windu, skilled as he is, would not have made much a difference with the overwhelming number of troops Palpatine sent. The result is likely the same -- only Obi-Wan and Yoda would have survived.
He may have been immortal. The films never give a concrete answer on this, but nothing would have prevent him from transferring power to an appointed heir. This didn't work in ROTJ, though, because Anakin himself was likely the appointed heir but he died as well.
You made a very good point, but I don't agree with the first part at all. Mace windu was given the chance to end the sith once and for all, to halt the creation of the Galactic Empire of the galaxy ruled by the Sith, all the atrocities in the original trilogy and EU, and anakin stopped him and saved the emperor, thereby being responsible for the empire's existence.
What do you mean by transferring power to an appointed heir? Vader/Anakin was dying slowly, because his lungs were damaged on mustafar. He couldn't live that long to be heir.
The thing is, though, that Palpatine only revealed himself to Anakin in order to turn him. If Qui-Gon Jinn had never found Anakin, Palpatine would have had no reason to do this and thus would have exterminated the Jedi by simply giving out Order 66. That's the point I'm trying to make -- in the film as it plays out, Anakin does indeed bear responsibility for the formation of the Empire. But had he not been present, Palpatine didn't need him for his plan to succeed and the Empire would have formed any way.
As to an appointed heir, I imagine that if Palpatine was intending to pass on his power, that he would have designated Anakin/Vader his heir should he die since he seems to be the next highest ranking member of the Empire. If Vader/Anakin died before Palpatine, though, he would have just picked someone else or gotten a new apprentice. That person would then have been designated heir, but I believe it defaulted to Anakin, if anyone.
Very good point. I agree. However, that still doesn't change the fact that Anakin created the Empire, regardless of "what if", or "what if qui gon never took him away from tattoine". At that point, he had a decision, but decided to help the emperor at the last minute, being responsible for the empire's creation and their evil deeds.
Yes, the way things played out in ROTS, Anakin helped create the Empire, although Palpatine was the architect and the master manipulator behind it. I simply was pointing out that it's not fair to blame Qui-Gon Jinn for the Empire because it would have existed regardless of whether he found Anakin or not. That's all.
So, by your logic, anything is actually somebody else's fault. Hitler was actually guilt-free because if the alarm-clock worker had not made an error on the assembly line, the bus driver in 1909 would not have not been late, then the woman who rode that bus would not have been waiting for the bus stop, and because she waited at the bus stop, she got tired and dropped her bag, and a man picked the bag up for her, and they became friends, and bag-man introduced the woman to his brother, who she ended up marrying, and they made Hitler? So the Holocaust and much of WWII were actually the fault of a factory worker who made alarm clocks?
I made that all up, to prove a point. My logic is twisted, impossible and unaccpetable. So is yours. Anakin's fault was all his own. Going by your faulty logic, Anakin's fall was actually the fault of Qui-Gon's mother, who chose to give birth to him instead of get an abortion! No, it's the fault of the little boy who walked past the pregnant mother, prompting her to decide against getting an abortion! But it's actually the fault of the little boy's mother, who send him on an errand which made him cross paths with Qui-Gon's mother! Or...
(Again, all made up. This kind of logic is invalid. So is your argument.)
My argument is valid. It's not as convoluted as your historical examples. Qui gon freeing anakin was a direct action to a specific person, not some wierd butterfly effect/domino effect theory.