Saga What is the legacy of Qui-Gon Jinn?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by BoromirsFan, Feb 23, 2012.

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  1. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    In answer to the OP, in my interpretation of what's on screen, Qui-Gon's consciousness does form itself from the "Netherworld of the Force" until Anakin's first steps towards the dark side (when he slaughters the tribe of Sand People). So you could say that that action "caused" Qui-Gon's spirit to form. One way of seeing it, then, is that Anakin's first steps towards the dark side also contained the seeds of his redemption.




    I think the idea is that people can only communicate with Force ghosts they've actually known in their lives. The Force ghosts don't really exist "in reality," (which is why nobody seems the three Force ghosts at the end of ROTJ except for Luke) they just exist in the mind.

    IMO, the metaphor for that scene is that those who've taught us in some way don't really ever leave us. So from that point of view, Qui-Gon *shouldn't* be there.
  2. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    [face_shame_on_you] Now, now, Obi-Wan DID succeed in training Anakin to knighthood, so he was capable of that and I don't think Qui-Gon's confidence was misplaced.

    HOWEVER, Anakin CHOSE to disregard his Jedi teaching - key word, chose. He was trained properly but failed to implement his training (and yes, it is true that one can potentially lay some blame on Obi-Wan for not getting thru to Anakin WHY he should obey his training).
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  3. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3


    Indeed, so I'll try and clarify my point. I think Obi-Wan did the best that he could, I think he did as well as any Jedi (and his words about Yoda being more capable are somewhat overshadowed by his former padawan - Dooku - being a Sith Lord). What was wrong there was that Qui-Gon, in spite of the Council having predicted the very reasons that Anakin's training was a mistake, instead of thinking of his own padawan's well-being put upon his shoulders the burden of training Anakin as his last dying wish. Even though he knew Obi-Wan didn't agree, he chose to ignore the wisdom of the Jedi Council because of his firm conviction (pride?) in his ability to arbitrate the will of the Force - above and beyond the combined wisdom of the Council.

    That is what is wrong with that scene.

    What I also believe is that the experience we are shown with Luke is, perhaps, a clue that Anakin was both too old and too young to take on board the lessons of the Jedi. You can argue that Luke hasn't had the incessant teachings of a Sith Lord throughout his childhood and to that I would say, I agree. What Luke has had is an upbringing by good people. The same thing would have happened with Anakin if he had been left with Schmi.

    What Qui-Gon did was free Anakin, not for the benefit of Anakin, but to effectively enslave him within the context of being the Chosen One. He did not free Anakin, he effectively won him for his own designs.
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Nov 20, 2012
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  4. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    ^ Now THAT I can agree with.

    1. Qui-Gon was absolutely firm in his self-conviction when he should have at least hesitated when faced with so many who disagreed. He may have kept to his original conviction, but he did not need to dismiss out of hand others' viewpoints.

    2. GL himself said Anakin was both too old and too young - so no argument there.

    3. Indeed - in fact, Qui-Gon spoke of Anakin as "the Chosen One, you must see it" in front of the Council, almost as if Anakin the person was not as important. However, considering how personable he was with Anakin prior to that (on Tatooine), I don't fault him heavily on that - he did treat Anakin as both person and prophecy though at different times.

    4. Qui-Gon blew it on the "tact" issue - he set up a split between Obi-Wan and Anakin right in the Council - "dismissing" his nearly-ready-to-be (in HIS view with no idea if the Council thought so, too) knighted padawan for a "better padawan" or so it must have seemed to those two, if not to Qui-Gon himself.
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Nov 20, 2012
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  5. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    Death. That is the legacy of Qui Gon Jin. He is the first jedi to die in the six films on purpose because Sidious didn't want Jin to get in his way. Sidious made sure that Jin was killed and Sidious made sure that Kenobi survived because Kenobi was not as wise as Jin. That is why Kenobi says, "I have failed you Anakin, I have failed you." Jin had more of an ability to save Anakin than even Yoda or Kenobi or Windu had.
  6. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    WHAT!
    Last edited by Darth_Kiryan, Nov 20, 2012
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  7. thesevegetables Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2012
    star 4
    Who is Jin?
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  8. Roberto Calrissian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2012
    star 4
    Inappropriate for Saga Darth Boba
    Last edited by DarthBoba, Dec 1, 2012
  9. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    His legacy is discovering The Whill of The Force.
  10. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    Qui-Gon did not disappear when he died. Therefore his body was not preserved. It was only his mind that that was able to return through the Force. Both Yoda and Obi-Wan disappeared thus their bodies being preserved. Qui-Gon could be charged with the downfall of the entire Jedi Order as it was he who found the Chosen One and the Chosen One that eventually led the 501st legion against the Jedi Temple. Good job Qui Gon.

    On a serious note I feel Qui-Gons biggest acomplishment was teaching Yoda and Kenobi how to retain their identities after death.
  11. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I guess you didn't watch Return Of The Jedi? Cause you left out a rather big deal at the end of that film. You know, the one where Vader kills the Emperor. ;)
  12. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    Actually no I did not forget that part. It is actually one of my favorite scenes. That was Anakin that killed the Emperor but still we can not forget that Anakin took down an entire Jedi Order and killed younglings to boot. One of the saddest scenes for me from Revenge of the Sith is when that little boy says to Anakin "Master Skywalker there is too many of them. What should we do?" Then Anakin ignites his saber and the little fellow jumps as if startled. Sure Anakin killed the Emperor to save his son. That does not change what he did. Let us not forget Obi-Wan said to Anakin at the end of Revenge of the Sith. "You were the Chosen One. It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them. Bring balance to the Force not leave it in darkness." Anakin left the Force in darkness and it was there for over twenty years. Ultimately Anakin did destroy an entire Jedi Order. Thanks again Qui-Gon.
    Last edited by Felicia, Dec 5, 2012
  13. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    The entire Jedi order was going to get massacred with or without Anakin; he was just the icing on Sidious' cake, and would never have been in a position to kill the Emperor without Qui-Gon. Soo yeah.
  14. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    Maybe. What we do know is that Anakin led the 501st legion on the Jedi Temple and that during that time frame the Jedi Order fell. Anakin did have a chance to destroy the Sith but instead he joined them. Throughout the entire movie everyone knew it was coming but it was still tough to watch at least for me.
    Last edited by Felicia, Dec 5, 2012
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The bulk of the Jedi were killed by clones. Anakin mostly handled the difficult task of killing kids.

    Anakin didn't disappear, yet he ended up with a visible ghost. The same could be said for Obi-Wan's cloak.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 5, 2012
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In the novels we're told that Anakin's body did disappear- and it was only the armour Luke burned.

    Maybe that's why the helmet is back on in the funeral pyre scene?
  17. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    I think there is a deep connection between Qui-Gon's death and the eventual demise of the Jedi. He was a stabilizing factor of the ethical standards of the Jedi Order in many ways. He was among the only Jedi who understood the need for compassion and consideration of all creatures.

    We see among the Jedi a type of callousness toward some living beings in the prequels. This is particularly clear in their interaction with the clones. This human slave army is used by the Jedi to fight what is probably a just conflict, but at apparently no consideration for the clones' personal choices. I believe that Qui-Gon would have spoken out against this and desired for the clones to at least be given some agency in their decision to fight on behalf of the Republic.

    When Qui-Gon petitions the Jedi Council on behalf of Anakin to receive the Jedi training there is much trepidation on the part of the council because of his age. Though Anakin ultimately succumbed to the dark side, in the OT Yoda and Obi-Wan still press forward with Luke's training. It's as if they have come to understand the wisdom of Qui-Gon pressing for Anakin to be trained and have determined Anakin's fall to the dark side is not due to the late age that he began training but rather his own personal shortcomings.

    Yet they don't appear to have certainty of this fact (Yoda in particular seems to be hesitant with Luke), but they go forward anyway; as if to say, Qui-Gon understood and this might work with Luke after all he is our only remaining hope.
  18. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    He did kill a few Jedi Knights, we just don't see most of it (only bits on holo). That's probably why some people expressed disappointment in the Operation Knightfall. Personally, I side with Lucas on this one: evil is evil, it shouldn't be cool, especially in kids' movies.

    Anakin didn't disappear, yet he ended up with a visible ghost. The same could be said for Obi-Wan's cloak.[/quote]

    This can explained by the fact that he's more machine than man.
  19. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    What callousness do we see from the Jedi toward living beings? The interaction with the clones that is shown within the movies is always of a personable nature; each clone that is in contact with a Jedi is treated as an individual; which is exactly what they were not supposed to be.

    Yoda does not agree with Anakin's training. He says as much in TPM, he says that even though he disagrees, the Council have decided.... While Yoda is hesitant with Luke, Obi-Wan's words are "was I any different when I was that age?", not Anakin, but Obi-Wan. It was not Anakin's age that concerned the Jedi, but his fear. More pertinently, his fear of loss, which is exactly the weakness that Sidious used to turn Anakin. What Qui-Gon did was see the prophecy without seeing the damage that his taking Anakin from Schmi would do. He didn't see the fear that the other Jedi did, he saw only the prophecy. A prophecy that "misread, could have been.."
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  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Lucas said Luke was burning Anakin's body, as opposed to his armor.

    Back on what?
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Back on his head. Luke takes the helmet off and sees his father's head- but we see the helmet on the body in the fire.
  22. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    As far as the callousness, it is quite evident. OBI-WAN: “Why do I sense we’ve picked up another pathetic life-form?” in reference to their connection with Jar-Jar Binks (not only suggesting Gungans were beneath him but that coming into contact with "pathetic life-forms" was probably a regular occurrence with Qui-Gon). I agree that the Jedi were respectful to the clones as individuals but is their anything more dehumanizing than war? (Perhaps sexual abuse or slavery...though the clone army were also essentially slaves). It's not to say that this tells us the Jedi were evil, they were not. The Jedi were still good beings, but had gotten slightly lost from the path and paid the price with the ultimate destruction of their order. Never once do you see a Jedi argue on the behalf of those that were commissioned to fight for them. These clones were never given a choice in what they were commissioned to do.

    As far as Anakin's training there are multiple references to his age: OBI-WAN: "The boy will not pass the Council's tests, Master, and you know it. He is far too old," MACE WINDU: "He is too old. There is already too much anger in him;" to name two.

    I don't argue that Yoda did not agree with Anakin's training, in fact that's part of my point. He disagrees with that training but acquiesces only to later realize that it can work. He could have more easily said, "look training Anakin at that late age didn't work so it won't work with Luke." As far as Obi-Wan's words about "was I any different when I was that age?" Obi-Wan is arguing on behalf of training Luke at that point, of course he's not going to point to Anakin's training. That would be undermining your entire argument. The point is Obi-Wan and Yoda (in the OT) would have both had Anakin's training in mind when they started to train Luke. Luke was even older than Anakin when he started training and he was a Sith Lord's progeny.

    As far as Qui-Gon making a mistake about Anakin I don't think he did, the prophecy was ultimately fulfilled. Anakin's attachment was the reason he ultimately succumbed to the dark side, but his age is what created the opportunity for that attachment. While there weren't direct familial concerns with Luke there were certainly some of the same concerns for Luke that there had been for Anakin (age, too set in his ways, rash behavior, etc).

    My entire thesis is that the Jedi had lost their way somewhat (which is a primary theme of the PT) and that is exemplified by their use of a "slave" army without ever arguing on behalf of the rights of these beings (and also exemplified by other random statements throughout the PT). Qui-gon Jinn embodied some of the key characteristics that the Jedi Order as a whole were missing. Yoda and Obi-Wan learned from this and this I believe is a key part of Qui-Gon Jinn's legacy.
    Last edited by Julius Vernon, Dec 7, 2012
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  23. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Sorry pal. I'm not buying this. The Jedi Order was already in decline before Qui-Gon met Anakin.
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  24. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We don't know if the Jedi did or did not argue against the use of clones.

    Obi-Wan's "pathetic lifeforms" which many of us feel was a poor joke that Qui-Gon only responded to at first with "a look" was because Obi-Wan did NOT know it was Anakin he was talking about (considering that the NEXT LINE is Qui-Gon's "It's the boy.") And one character's one comment cannot and should not condemn the entire Order to an accusation of callousness.
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  25. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    The clones being used as a "slave" army is a central theme to the PT. The absence of the Jedi's concern is significant in their portrayal of how they felt about the army. The abrupt nature of Yoda's arrival with the clones is central to the war being part of the demise of the Republic.

    As far as "condemning" the entire Order, no one condemned the entire Order. It is pointing out a symptom of their demise. It wasn't just Palpatine that destroyed the order, the Jedi Order failed to recognize the dark presence in its initial development because of some of its shortcomings.

    Obi-Wan's comment about Anakin is more about Jar-Jar than it is about Anakin. I don't think it was a poor joke at all, but even if it is it must be classified as callous toward Gungans.

    I think it is important to recognize that one of the important themes of the PT is that the Jedi Order was not perfect and had lost sight of some of its purpose.
    Last edited by Julius Vernon, Dec 7, 2012
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