Saga What is the legacy of Qui-Gon Jinn?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by BoromirsFan, Feb 23, 2012.

  1. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Of course the Order wasn't perfect; no organization is. I don't even think it's necessarily a sympton of their demise or ALL organizations would fall apart, although I do grant you only the Order had a Sith lord actively plotting its demise so maybe I'll concede that point.

    I also concur about the comment being directed at Jar Jar. Obi-Wan's sarcasm was his (sometimes not so nice) sense of humor which thankfully he toned down with maturity. That's not to say Jar Jar didn't earn a modicum of eye-rolling or somesuch from those so inclined. However, the comment was IMHO directed purely at Jar Jar individually, not Gungans in general.
  2. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 7, 2012
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    I think your final point is fair. It's not fair of anyone to assume because Obi-Wan or anyone else makes some derogatory comment about someone that they mean that entire individual's race, species, etc. (Modern day media tries that and looks silly).

    I can also see where you're coming from that a symptom pointing to a type of corruption or general unethical practices doesn't mean that the organization would fail. I would definitely say that I do NOT think the organization failed because of their views toward clones and/or other beings. But it is my opinion the organization had begun to overlook some of the things that were central to an order of "warrior monks." I think that the clone issue may exemplify some of their "looking beyond the mark" or losing sight of what is central to an organization such as theirs.

    Based on the premise of the OP I think Qui-Gon's legacy is wrapped up in how he was different from the Order rather than like the others in the Order. I don't think he's the greatest Jedi ever or was superior to the other Jedi, but that he had characteristics such as his views on other life forms or his views toward the "living" Force that were perhaps more ideal than others of the Order. (Ideal in the sense that they were central to Jedi ideology).
  3. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Sep 16, 2005
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    @Julius Vernon: I personally appreciate your thoughts on Qui-Gon, so often some posters hold him up as this virtuous, perfect "Jedi" when it's obvious he has own faults like anyone else. He could be dismissive and cold to others, living Force Jedi or not, and too caught up in the idea of his connection to the Force to credit others when there was a difference of opinion.

    With that said, his point of view was certainly a refreshing one because the Order - necessarily so, IMHO - focused on the larger picture and the greater good. That is all well and good, but in such an Order, there is a real need for someone who sees the trees in the forest and reminds the leadership of that aspect.

    In short, BALANCE.

    Funny how there's so much to be balanced and how unbalanced many things were.
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  4. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 7, 2012
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    I completely agree that Qui-Gon was far from perfect. For one he has to be one of the most closed-minded Jedi we see. Once he makes up his mind on something that's the way it is.

    I like your summary of "balance" in seeing the trees in the forest. I think Qui-Gon may be on one extreme when a good portion of the council is on the other extreme.

    (PS - How do you "tag" someone like you tagged me?)
  5. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
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    You tag like this minus the space

    @

    followed by the user name or

    @Julius Vernon

    Then, once you post, you will see a slight change in font color on the tagged user's name.

    In code, it looks like {user=1375056}Julius Vernon {/user} only use square brackets rather than the squiggly ones I used.
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Dec 7, 2012
  6. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

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    star 4
    I still like Qui-Gon more than any other Jedi. He's stubborn, of course (aren't they all?), but he's also warm and less dogmatic.
    Julius Vernon likes this.
  7. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Didn't seem all that warm (to me) to a lot of folks - only to Anakin and Shmi. Dismissive of Jar Jar and Padme and Obi-Wan... but he was supposed to be a more people-oriented personality than reserved like many others we saw (Jedi) - of course, Palpatine was "warm and cuddly" too - to Anakin.
  8. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    @Julius Vernon

    The Jedi didn't have any say in the use of the clone army, they were not a party to the decision a)to use them (as we are shown with the Senate vote and the discussions leading up to that, in which the Jedi had informed the authorities of what they had learned on Geonosis) and b) to go to war. They served the Republic. One can argue that might have been their downfall, but why would they not, given the seeming 'alternative'. We don't know how they viewed the use of the clone army, as it is not something that is discussed - and I think this is a failing in the movies, simply because of time-constraints, there was too much story to cover within three short movie episodes, I think. You are right to point out the moral dilemmas that the use of such an army should have generated, but such aspects are never touched upon within the films. But to jump to the conclusion that the Jedi have no problem demands that we discount everything we know about what the Jedi stand for. So, what little evidence we have I take at that value; the Jedi treat the clones as individuals, with their own names. Their interaction (as shown between Cody and Obi-Wan) is personable and warm.

    I also don't see the decline in standards of the Jedi as being a theme of the movies; in fact it becomes clear that the theme really is deception. They didn't know that the whole us vs them was a charade, that the 'us' and the 'them' were, in fact, lead and manipulated by the same individual.

    As for Anakin's training, and Qui-Gon's part in it - and the eventual turn of Anakin... when I said it was not because of his age, what I mean is it is not his age per sé. That strikes as a simply dogmatic, almost bureaucratic, consideration. The Jedi Council did not make their decision on bureaucratic reasoning; it was the fear and anger they sensed within Anakin - a result of his age - that made their decision.

    I also agree with @Valairy Scott that Qui-Gon can be remarkably cold and off-hand. He seems (to me at least) totally un-moved by Anakin's emotional farewell with Schmi. It is interesting to note that Obi-Wan is castigated by many for his 'cold' behaviour toward Anakin in AOTC, but if you watch Qui-Gon with young Obi-Wan, he is simply aping his old Master here. Yet Qui-Gon is seen as warm, a fine and exemplary teacher - while Obi-Wan is portrayed as cold and dismissive.

    Qui-Gon is dismissive of any but his own views on how things should be. He tells Obi-Wan to ignore the sense that he has early in TPM, and we know from subsequent events that Obi-Wan's feelings were correct - that there was "something...elsewhere" behind it all. Qui-Gon walks into that mission convinced that the Neimodians will simply aquiesce to their terms (he describes them, I believe, as cowards...though I'll have to check that) - it is strange that Obi-Wan's later phrase (clearly directed toward the individual Jar-Jar) are often invoked as representing the Gungans in general, while Qui-Gon's dismissal of the Neimodians (or the Trade Federation) is ignored.

    Another aspect of Qui-Gon's decision is rarely discussed. He seems to imply that he takes Anakin because he has been directed toward Anakin and thus it must be that the Force desires him to be trained as a Jedi. Does the prophecy state that the Chosen One will be a Jedi? We don't know, but Qui-Gon takes his feeling that Anakin should be as paramount, as above all other interests (the Council's combined wisdom, Anakin's own emotional upheaval at leaving his mother - which he has witnessed forst-hand).

    Now, I've heard the argument before that he must have been right because Anakin eventually does defeat the Sith......but there is a problem with that, in my opinion. For one that could persuade that the whole arc was the will of the Force. Secondly that means that Anakin really did have no choice, and so the idea that Star Wars is about choices becomes meaningless. If the film is about choices then Qui-Gon's choices here put in motion the events that occur. His are the choices that drive TPM, and thus the saga.
  9. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    If I remember correctly, Luke nearly became unhinged, following Obi-Wan's death aboard the Death Star. And it took the Jedi Master's force ghost to snap him out of his anger and leave with Leia and Han. I would say that Obi-Wan's brief training of Luke did not accomplish much. It merely started Luke on the road to his Jedi training. I would go even further in stating that both Yoda and in an ironic way, Anakin, finished his training.

    Considering that Obi-Wan did not achieve much in his brief training of Luke, I really do not see the point in criticizing Qui-Gon's time with Anakin. Do people really expect an individual to achieve so much in such a brief space of time?



    I don't recall Qui-Gon being "unmoved" by Anakin's farewell to Shmi. He merely kept his distance while son and mother said good-bye for the last time.

    And I don't believe that Obi-Wan was a cold and dismissive teacher. I thought he was simply too critical. It's one thing to express appreciation of your student's accomplishments and be critical at the same time. I noticed that Qui-Gon was this way with Obi-Wan and Yoda was this way with Luke. But Obi-Wan never managed to attain such a balance with Anakin. Not until their relationship as Jedi mentor and student was over.
    Last edited by DRush76, Dec 8, 2012
  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    In The Clone Wars: Wild Space- Yoda tells Obi-Wan firmly that he's supposed to be Anakin's mentor, not his friend, and not to try and make friends with him. This is right after they've gotten back from the fight with Dooku in AoTC. Obi-wan concludes Yoda is wrong in this case.

    By the time of the RoTS novel- it's made clear that they are not only friends but best friends. That said, Obi-Wan also points out that as a result, numerous times, Anakin has taken huge risks, when the lives of millions were at stake, to save Obi-Wan.
  11. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    =D==D=

    Which shows Qui-Gon is very human and not perfect. Which is fine by me; I'm the one who argues one cannot expect the Jedi (Order or individuals) to be perfect and one should not judge it/them by that impossible standard of behaving as if they were not perfect as supposedly they are.

    But the extent to which Qui-Gon's human foibles are overlooked and handwaved away, while other's are mocked and used as examples of a bad, or cold, or out-of-touch person boggles my mind. I don't expect perfection from any of these characters and got exactly that.

    My biggest character-moment complaint (movie-only, regardless of novel explanation): Obi-Wan shutting Jar Jar in with the droids on the Naboo ship. Really - a living breathing sentient locked in with droids? (Even adding in the novel, it has Qui-Gon telling Obi-Wan to stash Jar Jar "somewhere safe" without specification of where that is.)
  12. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    According to Obi-Wan in the ROTS novel, no.
  13. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    A-ha, which I have just started re-reading. So, Qui-Gon's choices - because that's what they were, he was not more connected with the Force or privvy to the will of the Force where others were not - lead to the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, or at least set the wheels in motion.

    Just thinking about it, the suggestions I have seen that Qui-Gon was more attuned to the Force, this comes about because that is the impression he gives, and I wonder if it is not a touch of the arrogance of his old Master that we see there..... And, I will have to check, but when Dooku talks of how he wished Qui-Gon were still around in AOTC does Ob-Wan pause to think before declaring that Qui-Gon would never join him?
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
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    But by the same token, they also eventually led to the defeat of Palpatine in ROTJ.
  15. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Qui-Gon stood and watched without a hint of emotion as a nine year old boy was reduced to tears upon leaving his mother for good. I would consider that un-moved.

    As for Qui-Gon showing appreciation of Obi-Wan's accomplishments while being critical at the same time..... I think the only time he says anything positive to him is when Obi-Wan apologises (for daring to question his Master's choices - a 'crime' for which Qui-Gon had given him the cold-shoulder until that apology). I simply don't see what you see.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  16. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
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    @Arawn_Fenn

    So the whole story occurred as it should have done, as the Force planned/willed it?
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Dec 9, 2012
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
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    Well, Anakin could have done the right thing in ROTS instead of ROTJ.
  18. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 5, 2012
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    It's interesting that Qui-Gon set up the OT while only appearing in one movie. His role was simple, but very important. He was the master of Obi-Wan, and the one who discovered Anakin Skywalker. That alone is enough to change the course of history, but on top of that, there's the force ghost thing to consider. While he may be irrelevant even by Attack of the Clones, his actions will always remain important.
  19. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Considering what the other Jedi characters - including Obi-Wan - were willing to do to maintain the Order and its position within the Republic, I would say they were just as guilty as Anakin from a certain point of view.
  20. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
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    I'm not sure that I know what you mean by this. Could you explain?
  21. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

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    Nov 5, 2001
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    They hide the fact that their ability to use the Force has diminished.
  22. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 7, 2012
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    @only one kenobi

    So a lot of people would like to point to the fact that we never see the Jedi agree or disagree with the use of a clone army in the films as reason that we cannot comment on the views of the Jedi concerning the use of a clone army. I agree that this is probably a shortcoming of the films due to time constraint. But I think the Jedi support is quite evident. They chose to lead the clone armies into battle. If they were truly opposed would they not have refused to lead the clone armies into battle? They are the protector's of Republic peace, but they didn't have to engage in support of an army that was a 'slave' army.

    Once again, I want to be clear that I do not think this one item tells us the Jedi are morally reprehensible, but at the same time I would find it hard to believe that if the US had gone to war with another country during Abraham Lincoln's tenure as president that he would feel comfortable sending African American armies to war in the stead of a volunteer army if it were to be led by he and his staff.
  23. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 7, 2012
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    I believe Qui-Gon's differences from the Jedi tell us a lot about the Jedi in the PT. He's a Jedi who seems to understand a very different aspect of the Force and the role of the Jedi.
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Could have been Yoda who, on Kamino, decided that it was acceptable for the Jedi to act as generals for the army- before leading it to Geonosis.
    Julius Vernon likes this.
  25. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Where to start?

    First, the Jedi, as far as I remember, did not decide to lead the clone armies. Palpatine, with his new powers, decreed that the Jedi would lead the armies - a role we see him set them up for early in AOTC, where he already talks of them defending the Republic.

    So, what are the Jedi's options? They could refuse to lead the army full stop, but that would alienate them from the Republic - they would be of no help to anyone; they would become just a self-interested cult disappearing off into the horizon, getting out of the kitchen when it got too hot...

    They could refuse to lead a clone army and instead demand a 'volunteer' army from the best of the Republic.... There are two problems that spring to mind here. First (and in relation to Lincoln there was no 'volunteer' army, there was conscription, the burden of which fell upon the poorest (one could buy release from conscription...land of the free and all that) and newly arrived immigrants) it is unlikely a large enough army could have been raised simply from volunteers, and so conscription would have been the order of the day. Not only that but there was already in place a very large droid army. There was also a very large, well-trained clone army. What the Republic did not have was the time to train green recruits into a fighting force. So, the clone army was the only realistic option for the Republic. Of course this is all part of Palpatine's plot because, unlike a conscript, volunteer or simply slave army, what the clones lack is their own free will. They will not question the ethical basis of their role, they will not question the commands of their rulers/commanders.
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