Saga What is the legacy of Qui-Gon Jinn?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by BoromirsFan, Feb 23, 2012.

  1. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    See my response to this in post #163. This is an impression directly from Qui-Gon's demeanour. He dismisses Obi-Wan's sense of "something...elsewhere", when Obi-Wan is shown to be picking up on something Qui-Gon clearly is not. Qui-Gon foresees no problem with their meeting with the Trade Federation. He seems to be surprised by the Jedi Council's refusal to train Anakin; seems oblivious to the fear that they sense in him. And.... there is an odd dichotomy between what he says and what he does. He tells Obi-Wan to concentrate on the now, and then is driven by the words of a prophecy, regardless of what going on around him in the now.

    The whole idea of his being some sort of special one comes from his attitude, which I see - personally - as bordering on (perhaps even sliding over the border of) arrogance.
  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Strictly, the clones have exactly as much free will as any other human. Thanks to being raised by Kaminoans from birth, and indoctricated heavily in obedience, they are less likely to question. Even then, it's not unheard of.
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  3. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 7, 2012
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    Your conscription comments only obfuscate the discussion. That is not the point at all. The point is, the Jedi could have refused to support a slave army (and indeed I would hope anyone with true moral fortitude would have the moral wherewithal to do it even if that meant they were "alienate[d] from the Republic.") True moral dilemmas have caused many to be alienated from society.

    The use of a slave army is as morally deplorable as the individual purchase of slaves. The Jedi are not the moral paradigms that some hold them up to be. They were falling short of their own standards. This is part of what led to their demise. Qui-Gonn's juxtaposition with the high council is informative to the viewer to see where the Jedi are lacking.

    As far as the Jedi not deciding to lead the clone armies, the Jedi are agents of themselves. They even fight when the Chancellor moves to take over the Jedi council. The Jedi could have used political channels to rely on other options for an army, it doesn't even have to be a volunteer army, there are multitudinous options beyond that that do not involve the strict use of individuals who are genetically programmed to live a life half as long as other similar individuals and who are never given an opportunity beyond contributing to the GAR.
  4. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 7, 2012
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    Well I don't think Qui-Gonn was superior to the other Jedi overall, but he did have certain attributes that made him unique. His connection to the living Force unlocked the ability to communicate with living Jedi beyond the grave. This of course played a pivotal role in the Skywalker saga, ensuring Luke's training.
  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In The Clone Wars: Wild Space, Yoda's musing to himself, right after the Battle of Geonosis:

    Remembering the Kaminoan cloning facility, its bright white sterility, its impersonal care for the creatures it created so efficiently, so remarkably, so utterly without compunction, he repressed a shudder.
    Deep questions of morality and ethics do these clones raise. But answers, are there? Know that I do not. Override ethics our desperate need for them might.
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  6. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Qui-Gon is not perfect, but he's more attuned to the Force and "feel" rather than "think". In that sense, he's closer to Luke - who, as we know, believes that there's still something good left in Vader, despite all evidence to the contrary.
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  7. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 7, 2012
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    I like that comparison. It was not one I had thought of myself, but I think you sum up the different approaches well.
    Last edited by Julius Vernon, Dec 10, 2012
  8. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    But, ultimately, Anakin had no choice, surely? If it were prophecised (as Qui-Gon believes) then Anakin's actions are not borne of choice, but of destiny.

    I have to come clean on this, I think the whole 'chosen one'/prophecy storyline was unnecessary and actually makes little sense, both in terms of Star Wars being about choices and also in terms of what we are shown on screen.

    There are two moments in the movies in which Anakin is credited with saving the day when he hasn't. Firstly, in TPM, he destroys the command ship but, Padmé has already won the war by capturing the Trade Federation leadership. Then the whole of the OT and ROTJ is ret-conned as Anakin having destroyed the Empire.....

    When I watched ROTJ it seemed clear to me that the rebels won the war, the Death Star was destroyed (with the aid of those awful, cutesy ewoks....but that's a whole other thing). The nature of Luke's visit to the Death Star (to spring the trap) is actually a self-sacrifice, distracting the Emperor and Vader, buying the rebels time. Anakin's fall and redemption is what it is; he saves Luke, at the cost of his own life, and Luke 'saves' Anakin.
  9. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    I haven't gotten to Wild Space yet, but I am interested. I think if you use the EU then the moral dilemma of using a clone army is delved into a lot more. At this point I'm trying to rely on only the films in my thoughts about Qui-Gonn's legacy.

    Your mention of Yoda's quote from Wild Space made me think of Kal Skirata's attitude toward the Jedi. He absolutely despises them for how they use the clones.
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Anakin had a choice, and don't call me surely!
  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    The Republic Commando books might have overplayed "Jedi ruthless use of clones" somewhat (depending on the reader) - but the issue is still there- and even authors more sympathetic to the Jedi sometimes make a point of mentioning it.
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  12. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    So I put a post somewhere that I don't have time to look up right now (I'm supposed to be working!) about my thoughts on destiny or choice in being the "chosen one." In short, I think he still had a choice, but the prophecy was made with knowledge of what his choices would be.

    As for Anakin saving the day I completely agree with (1) in TPM (he was only an aid to save some Gungans). On (2) I think it is possible that since the Emperor was killed the Imperial fleets were in dismay, but that really is an argument that would rely (mostly) on EU so I don't think it's fair to thrust on film purists.
  13. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 7, 2012
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    Thank you for the Airplane! reference, it brought a laugh to me.
  14. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
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    You mean Luke who was on the verge of killing Vader? His faith was in an ideal. He had witnessed very little of Vader's true evil, unlike Obi-Wan and Yoda, and knew only that his father had once been a Jedi Knight. I think that the shock on his face as Anakin kills the Emperor, the fact that he is hammering into Vader with his lightsabre, removing one of his hands, suggests that even he had given up on that faith by then.

    What I'm saying is, once he had a little more evidence that faith seemed to die down somewhat.
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  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    The EU had the destruction of the DS2 as causing the collapse of morale among the Fleet at that point- but it also made a point of how that didn't make a huge difference- the Rebels still had to spend years fighting the Empire- which regrouped several times.
  16. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Isn't it explained to Obi-Wan on Kamino that the clones have been genetically manipulated to be less independent? I don't think they do have the same level of free will as other beings if this is the case, and indoctrination would only re-inforce that.
  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    They might have removed some of Jango's solitariness- but that's not the same as removing free will.
  18. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
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    Kal Skirata.... there's a name to conjure. How the morality of the Jedi can be sensibly adjudged upon the basis of an 'heroic' Spartan-esque (say proto-National Socialist), militaristic society and its ultimate hero Kal - whose motivations seem to be about the purity and value of his people (read race) is, frankly, a little beyond me. That the Jedi were ascribed behaviour outside of what we are lead to believe of them within the films.... I have to say, some of the worst EU I have read. Well written, but very little to do with Star Wars in my opinion.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Mandalorians can be any species- while human Mandalorians are the commonest, there's quite a few alien ones.
  20. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 18, 2012
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    That's not the impression one would get from the tales of Kal Skirata
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

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  22. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    It's been a while since I read the books but, I remember Kal Skirata being appalled at the degeneration of precious Mandalorian heritage (and I think either blood/bloodlines/genes is used within that sentiment) by Jango Fett in allowing his genes to be used in the Clone Army.
  23. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    He gave in to the anger for a moment, but stopped in time. What matters is that he made the right choice in the end.
  24. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
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    But he doesn't make that choice from the perspective of faith in his father, he makes thechoice, personally, not to succumb to his anger and hatred. But that has nothing to do with his faith in Anakin - that faith, in the face of contradictory evidence, is gone. That is why there is shock when Anakin actually does saves him.
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  25. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    First of all, I was referring to his decision to surrender to Vader. He even tells Vader himself he senses the conflict in him which proves Luke's feelings about his father were right on target.
    Also, he's still begging his father to help him while being zapped, so some hope is still left in him at that point.

    That's why he's more similar to Qui-Gon who was all about intuition than to more logical Obi-Wan and Yoda who don't believe Vader can be saved.