What is the overall opinion of Darth Sidious now after watching ROTS?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by r8hitman, Jun 13, 2005.

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  1. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

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    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    And yet didn't come off as being invincible or infallible. He made mistakes, yet was able to work around them or even make something good out of them.
  2. Lord Mauly Mall TFN/JC Banner Artist Team

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    Definitely.

    I was going to start a thread on his kidnapping. That's gotta be one of the smartest things he's done in the prequels on many different levels. Besides pulling Anakin into his trap to destroy Dooku, it made him look like a sympathetic victim when the Jedi thought his time as Supreme Chancellor had long expired.

    I'm thinking as soon as Anakin told Palpatine that his mother was kidnapped and died, Palpatine thought of the kidnapping scenario for himself to lure Anakin to the dark side by killing Dooku while rescuing him. Palpatine made it clear to remind Anakin of the sand people kidnapping his mother after Anakin killed Dooku to justify his revenge.

    Then a while later in the classic opera scene, Palpatine turns on Grievous by telling Anakin that his "clone intelligence" had located Grievous.

    Sidious could have written a New York Times bestseller on how to rule the galaxy. He also could have put Dr. Phil and Depak Chopra to shame.
  3. TheLightSide Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2005
    star 2
    You know Ian McDiarmid is a genius actor, and does a great job.

    I still can't stand the character of Palps/Sid/Emperor, but he did a great job.

    I still when watching the "Opera Scene" have to remind myself that he IS the Bad Guy.
  4. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Seeing him in ROTS, showed what a mockery his defeat in ROTJ was. With his Ligtsaber skills, force powers and Sith Lightning, he's arguably the most powerful character in the entire saga but now to rewatch him so easily killed in ROTJ, helplessly lifted off his feet and thrown down a reactor shaft in a few seconds seem so ridiculous.

    Yes, I've heard similar sentiments from quite a few people about how the Emperor's death seems ridiculous. Maybe that's why Lucas didn't portray him as invincible in ROTS, because the ending of ROTJ obviously shows that he is vulnerable and mortal. A person who could be killed like that would need to have some weaknesses. I suspect that people who initially thought he was all-powerful based their belif on assumptions about implied power and spoilers about ROTS, rather than what he did in ROTJ since all he did was use force lightning and Vader still managed to kill him. I think he showed more of his powers in ROTS, but that doesn't mean he was any less powerful in ROTJ. Jedi who could compete with him weren't around, so he had no need for a lightsaber or to engage in physical combat (or so he thought, since a lightsaber would have come in handy when being carried to the reactor shaft).
  5. UPwind-ooooh Jedi Knight

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    Oct 17, 2003
    star 2
    The Emperor's death in ROTJ parallels Mace's in ROTS -- Vaderkin sneaks up on both as they are preoccupied with their 'prey.' Vader pays the ultimate price as he kills the Emperor, but he paid a price worse than death by unhanding Windu and allowing Palpsidious to zap him into oblivion. Anakin lost his honor, his true identity, his Jedi affiliation, his wife and the Republic.

    Ian portrayed Palsidious in a much more complex manner than I anticipated. Oh, I knew the Senator Palpatine from TPM and AOTC, and the Emperor from ROTJ, so I assumed as many did that Sidious was really the all powerful person we see in ROTJ and merely stacking the deck in the OT until he could pull off the Jedi purge. But the 'humanity' Ian conveyed during the Opera scene and in Palpatine's chambers with Anakin really threw me. I think that was GL's intent -- that Palpsidious was above all else a powerful deciever, hence the name Sidiuos (in-sidious). That also made a stark contrast between the sincere, fatherly and quite convincing Palpatine and the cartoonishly evil Sidious.

    I like Sids 2nd to the suited Vader in the saga. And the deceptiveness of Palpatine helps to explain Anakin's fall from grace. His decision to join with Sids was ultimately the wrong one, and was a decision the meant accepting evil, but he did it for love just like so many fallen heroes from ancient Earth mythology, and only after being manipulated to do so by the sly and sinister Palpsidious.

    Ian rocks -- I expect to see him as a baddie in more than one movie in the not too distant future.



  6. MaceWindu_is_GOD Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 3
    Well since you ask R8;)



    Mace is still my favorite character but what Sidious did in ROTS.[face_thinking]


    I really thought Sids was just some Cobra Commander villain but in Ep. 3 he has used his brains with brawns through his mastery of the dark side to his brilliant political savvy, he has shown in ROTS that he is the most powerful Force-User in the galaxy.


    What the Sith lack in numbers, he makes up with stealth and deception.



    Through his Palpatine guise, he has won the confidence of Anakin, the Senate and the whole Republic.

    As Sidious:

    He has destroyed 4 powerful Jedi masters like nothing.
    (3 of them in seconds and Mace INSTANTLY right after holding back to lure Anakin to the Dark Side)

    Even Yoda gave up at the end realizing the Emperor is too powerful to defeat.


    From throwing giant pods like Superman to knocking out the most powerful Jedi, Yoda. Darth Sidious is truly the most powerful master of the Dark Side.


    The Revenge is truly his.
  7. DarthSanantta Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2005
    No discussion here, Sidious is the real Master. He manages to turn the most powerful Jedi into the Dark Side, and then overrule the entire galaxy. Darth Vader, the evil in person, is just a puppet of Sidious; he will do whatever Sidious wants. Then everyone knows what happens...
  8. jedixesiria Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2005
    star 2
    I thought he was very powerful in the dack side.More powerful then I thought he would have deen.I was up set that he died the way he did but,o well.
  9. lordvicious Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 2
    I think Sidious is awesome in this movie. He is way beyond any of the Jedi in terms of intelligence. The plan he puts in place and his ability to react to hiccups in his plan is incredible. He makes the Jedi look like a bunch of idiots.

    Power-wise, it is a shame that GL watered him down a bit from his original vision. He should have crushed Yoda, but GL succumbed to the pressue of the Yoda fan I am sure. I am a "yes" voter for his battle with Mace. He played him like a fiddle, and his abilities when that fight first started showed his dominance over Windu. The only reason Windu "disarms" him was to further Sidious' plan. Sidious was clearly the dominant Force user. GL allowed Yoda to hold his own, but he was overmatched in the end. Sidious bested him just like the OS says. The one disappointment I had with Sidious' abilities is that I wanted to see him be the one fighter to do a true Force/lightsaber combo. To see Sidious pick Agen Kolar up in a Force Choke and then run him through would have been awesome. Combos like that would have made Sidious vs. the posse turn out a lot better.
  10. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8

    Power-wise, it is a shame that GL watered him down a bit from his original vision. He should have crushed Yoda, but GL succumbed to the pressue of the Yoda fan I am sure.


    Or maybe Lucas just realized that that wouldn't have made sense. Sidious could not be a god-like personage because it would have been both unrealistic and contradictory to the rest of the saga.

    The stalemate between Yoda and Sidious was Lucas's way of showing that the light and dark sides of the Force are equal. Yoda showed himself to be the superior duelist, and it's unfortunate that Yoda's disarming of Sidious was cut. That would have put a serious dent in Sidious supporters' arguments. As it is, it's obvious why Sidious moves the duel away from his office and into the Senate: He knows he cannot defeat Yoda in head to head lightsaber combat with so small a space, and needs to get things out into the open. This simply furthered my impression of him as being a masterful manipulator and strategist while also confirming that though Sidious is extremely powerful, he has his limitations.
  11. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    The stalemate between Yoda and Sidious was Lucas's way of showing that the light and dark sides of the Force are equal.

    Lucas said the dark side is stronger on the AOTC DVD commentary, so he does not want us to think the two sides of the force are equal. That's why the Emperor is portrayed as the most powerful force user, because he uses the stronger side of the force and is the greatest Sith lord. I don't see why the Emperor completely owning Yoda wouldn't make sense. What's wrong with someone being more powerful than Yoda? The Emperor is obviously very powerful and Gillard said he's better than Yoda because he has the added power of the dark side. McDiarmid said that he appears to be the fastest swordsman in the galaxy, that he thinks he fights at twice the speed of light if not sound, and that he's 500 times better than a Jedi Master. Sounds pretty powerful to me. We all saw how easily he took out Mace's posse; that was probably the most impressive display of lightsaber skills in the entire saga.
  12. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    So... why again in the original script did Yoda disarm Sidious? Or was that just Sidious faking again?


    Lucas said the dark side is stronger on the AOTC DVD commentary, so he does not want us to think the two sides of the force are equal


    I've never seen the context for that quote, though some people love to bring it up. I expect that there's some key context that goes with it, and that it changes things a bit when it's included with everything else that was said. Yoda clearly repelled Sidious's lightning and that deflection caused an explosion. That seemed to be pretty symbolic of the inability of either side to destroy the other when placed in the hands of their greatest masters.

    Yoda also won every saber lock against Sidious, appearing calm and in control while Sidious strained several times.

    I wish once again that Yoda's disarming of Sidious had been included, because that would have pretty conclusively ended any debate about Sidious being better with a saber. He's the greatest manipulator, and a powerful Force user, but he's not the greatest in that department. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, and ultimate power was not Sidious's. His power was in his mind, not a saber or even in lightning.
  13. Orionsangel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2004
    star 4
    Classic villian like the Witch in the Wizard of Oz!
  14. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    I've never seen the context for that quote, though some people love to bring it up.

    The context of the quote was the garage scene where Anakin is upset over his mother's death and swears that he will become the most powerful Jedi ever. Lucas says that if a Jedi wants the ultimate power, they have to go to the dark side, because the dark side is more powerful. How do we know that Yoda's disarming of the Emperor was in the final version of the script? Is the script published or is it only available online? Because if it is an online version, it might not be completely accurate. Certain star wars sites have a reputation for being fabricated. Even if it was in the script originally, maybe we don't see it in the film because Lucas did not want Yoda to seem like he is a better swordsman than the Emperor, which I think is a good thing since the Emperor has been established as the most powerful force user. Gillard said the Emperor is better than Yoda, and McDiarmid said he appears to be the fastest swordsman in the galaxy, that he thinks he fights at twice the speed of light if not sound, and that he is 500 times better than a Jedi Master, so Yoda is probably an inferior swordsman to the Emperor in light of these statements. I don't see how the Emperor could be viewed as not powerful with a lightsaber when he killed three of the greatest Jedi Masters in less than ten seconds, is one of only four characters listed as a level 9 in terms of lightsaber skills by Gillard, and considering all the comments Gillard and McDiarmid have made about his fighting abilities. Gillard said that Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've seen and you're a sucker if you think you can get the better of him. McCallum said that he will show an awesome display of the dark side. So it seems that lightning and a lightsaber are the Emperor's stregnths.
  15. Drac39 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2002
    star 6
    My opinion is that he`s the best movie villian ever...

    I was disapointed by the Mace duel though,I wanted Palpy to kick his ass
  16. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. No point in getting into a long drawn out debate, especially when this isn't the right thread for it.

    It's worth keeping in mind that Yoda did all that he did without touching the Dark Side, and that if he had done so, Sidious would probably have been utterly crushed. But that's a subject for my own thread, and I'll leave it at that ;).

    Just remember that Sidious cannot be superhuman or otherwise perfect, because that would diminish his character and his achievements. If he can do whatever he wants without flaw and defeat all others, it would be too easy (and unrealistic).

    In the movie that we all saw, Yoda fought Sidious to a standstill, and that's good enough for me.
  17. lordvicious Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
    star 2

    I, as a Sidious fan, hope that the scene with Yoda disarming Sidious is back in the DVD as well. That makes sense as Yoda has had a lot more practice in the last few decades than I am sure Sidious has had. However, Sidious overcoming Yoda's advantage at that point (which is the other half of that deleted scene) and being able to win without a lightsaber once again shows why Yoda was bested in this battle, however close it was.

    Yoda also was not exactly whistling in the saber locks. Out of the two we get to see Yoda's face, he is grimacing as well in one of them. Sidious is laughing in one of out the three we see so that is not terribly significant.

    That being said, there are other threads for debating these issues. I just wanted to say what I thought of the portrayal of the Sidious character and some things I thought would have made for a better portrayal. For me, Sidious being unquestionably more powerful than Yoda in this movie would have made the events of ROTJ all the more poignant. The wishy washy, near draw we see at the end of their fight left me somewhat cold. Yes Sidious won, but it was not a fitting end to a fight that we have been waiting for since 1983. The ending in the fight of the novel would have been better.
  18. inkswamp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 3
    What's your opinion of Darth Sidious now?

    I have two opinions of him after seeing ROTS.

    1. Bad

    2. Ass

  19. Seperatist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 1
    He IS the Dark Side. Darth Maul was just a drone, Darth Tyranus wasn't a completely evil Sith Lord and Darth Vader too could be redeemed. But not he, he's Lord of evil.

    -S-
  20. MacetheCouncillor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3
    You are absolutely correct in that it is a context to that, KnightWriter!

    It is in the commentary of the scene on Tatooine where Anakin talking to Padmé, expressing the desire to become the most powerful Jedi ever and to have the ability to stop people from dying. The latter, that it is about the ability to use the Force to prevent people from dying (which comes back in Episode III, by the way), which is not a combat-oriented ability, shows that farrellg's claim about this supposed significantly greater power for the dark side in combat situations is a bit off. In the context of what was being said, Lucas was probably saying that the dark side can grant its users abilities and powers which the light side can't, something I can firmly agree with.
  21. MacetheCouncillor Force Ghost

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    Dec 4, 2003
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    With this last clause, it is implied that the speed of sound is greater than that of light. Just for the record, light travels vastly faster than sound, by a facto of nearly a million if you compare it to the speed sound travels through normal air. And there is no way Sidious could be fighting twice the speed of light, or we would not even be able to see him. Hence, I can only come to the conclusion that if Gillard said all that (haven't seen it myself), then the whole quote must have been a huge exaggeration.

    In all the debates I have seen on how he fought in Episode III, I have never seen anyone claim that Sidious was not powerful with the lightsaber. We are just discussion whether Mace was more powerful in that specific sense.
  22. farrellg Force Ghost

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    Mar 17, 2005
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    The latter, that it is about the ability to use the Force to prevent people from dying (which comes back in Episode III, by the way), which is not a combat-oriented ability, shows that farrellg's claim about this supposed significantly greater power for the dark side in combat situations is a bit off.

    Actually, in an article called Master Behind the Action: Nick Gillard about Celebration III on starwars.com that is dated April 19, 2005, it says:
    For Episode III Gillard also was tasked with designing an impressive style for a character fans saw fight only briefly (via Force lightning) in Return of the Jedi -- the Emperor.
    "He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side," Gillard explains. "His character is so shrouded that his fighting style should be shrouded as well. The Emperor is deadly dangerous."
    Dangerous not only with his fighting style, but also his mental manipulation of a certain young Jedi, that Gillard was given the green light by Lucas to let loose with his choreography.

    This shows that the dark side does give a person greater combat abilities because he says the Emperor is better than Yoda when talking about his fighting style. Apparantly manipulation is not the Emperor's only stregnth, since the article says the Emperor is deadly dangerous with his fighting style.

    Hence, I can only come to the conclusion that if Gillard said all that (haven't seen it myself), then the whole quote must have been a huge exaggeration.

    Actually, it was McDiarmid who said he's faster than the speed of light. Gillard only said the Emperor is better than Yoda, that his abilities are beyond anything we've seen, and that you're a sucker if you think you can get the better of him. These quotes are not exaggerated. Even if McDiarmid is exaggerating, his quotes must be trying to convey a message about the character and thus have some truth to him. McDiarmid is trying to say that the Emperor is the most powerful force user in the galaxy, leagues ahead of a Jedi Master, and that he appears to be the fastest swordsman in the galaxy.
  23. arabiansanchez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2001
    star 4
    I believe Lucas was alluding o the fact it's easier to be angry and lash out than to be a good person. Hence the darkside flows more easily to most.

    As for Sidious been crap with a saber. The scenes were changed BECAUSE it made him look weak. GL made the decision that Sidious was NOT a poor duellist. IMO ofcourse.
  24. Clone_Commander169 Jedi Master

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    Aug 11, 2005
    star 4
    Sidious seems more powerful in ROTS
  25. LLL Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2000
    star 4
    I think Palpidious is absolutely brilliant, probably the most powerful Force-user ever (once Anakin gets injured) ... and a very sad, gravely damaged human being.
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