Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Jangounchained1990, Jun 21, 2015.
Crazy what two years can do
C-3P0 was built by Darth Vader as a child, making 3P0 essentially Luke's half-robot brother. ...wait a sec
Supreme Leader Snoke was actually Gollum. When he fell into Mount Doom as he caught the One Ring, it transported him to another galaxy.
Directly, no. But we do see Yoda training younglings at about age 4 or 5. Then we see adult Jedi fighting or doing other tasks. So it's pretty safe to assume that younglings spend all that time training until they reach adult age. That suggests that normal Jedi training takes at least around 10 to 15 years. We never see Jedi children in action, meaning only adult Jedi fight. So what do all those young Jedi do till they are adults if not training? This is only referring to human Jedi of course, since we have no way of knowing alien Jedi's age.
That's all fine regarding the training to become a knight of the Jedi order. It is not the same as the ability to use the force.
The glimpses of Jedi training we are given and the timescales in their training policy do not determine the necessary schedule for discovery of force abilities by an individual.
If there wasn't anything to refute it, then you could use those to claim that, indirectly, force use and force ability is only possible after significant amount of time training, approximate with what we are told or shown is Jedi order policy. The problem is that we had Luke and Leia demonstrate force abilities immediately after being made consciously aware of their powers and/or discovering different gifts under circumstances that demanded them and without any direct prompting or searching for them. And since then now we've had Rey and the broomstick kid.
So the theory of the relationship between length of training and the kind of ability or power a person can demonstrate doesn't hold up in the face of increasing examples of power and abilities being discovered out of necessity.
What example of Leia demonstrate Force abilities immediately after being made consciously aware of her powers do we have?
Can you give examples of this?
*and/or means that the both clauses don't necessarily apply to each subject equally. I am assuming that people have watched the films can sort out the examples from the well defined clauses by themselves. But anyway, Leia can hear Luke, and knows where to find him in ESB.
See above re Leia. For Luke, there's the Hoth cave, and beggars canyon.
Any force ability demonstrated by someone who has not received specific training or is not in the process of being instructed in that specific ability fits that description.
Or another way to find these examples is just look for examples where some fans have claimed it has "violated lore" and you've found one. Because what they are saying is that they do not see the theoretical minimum amount of training that would be necessary to support their fan theory of who can do what when.
Yes, true, having Force abilities and being a Jedi are two completely different things. Anakin had abilities without any training whatsoever. The Force clearly helped him in the podrace and when he destroyed the TF control ship. But becoming a Jedi requires going through all of the training as determined by the Jedi order as well as passing their tests. They have the final word on who is allowed to call himself Jedi and who isn't, regardless of skills.
We can compare it to a child being gifted, without having received formal training. But in order to have a formal degree that person would still have to take tests and graduate from university. Otherwise that "gift" might not be generally accepted.
As for Leia, sure, she did have some Force abilities, but without the proper training never at any point was she a Jedi. Luke was because a master who had the recognition of the Jedi Council made him one. It was only with Yoda's "sanction" that Luke called himself "Jedi". He could not just turn himself into a Jedi, but had to get permission from his master.
So what is your argument? We all know anyone who is gifted with the Force may know how to use it. But becoming a Jedi apparently does require a certain length of time spent in training. Otherwise you can be a Force user, may even by a skilled lightsaber fighter, like Grievous, but are not an "approved" Jedi.
Is it not obvious?
The point is that the demonstration of ability is not necessarily an indication of how much Jedi training a person has had. Yet examples of Jedi who have trained for years before being Jedi are always used to discredit examples of people using the force without comparable formal training.
If there was an example of someone who had the inherent ability to use the force yet struck out at every occassion when they might have wanted to use it, until they completed a formal course of Jedi/force training. Then there might be a discussion worth having.
But when a person displays their force powers without formal instructions by a Jedi knight or someone who has received similar training and someone protests, "But Jedi train for years!!! That's unpossible!!" it's a throbbing non-sequitur.
Exactly, I never contradicted that. We know the Jedi have rigid rules which they seem unwilling to change when situations require it. Anakin may have been a full Jedi at a much earlier age due to his Force abilities and skill. But the Council wouldn't make him one because that would have been against their rules. So no, who the Jedi declare having had enough training does not reflect that person's actual abilities.
Please take the antagonism down a notch. Just a friendly reminder before it gets really heated.
So why do you think that people call examples of immediately demonstrating previously untold ability/powers - like Luke in ANH and early in ESB, Leia in ESB, Rey in TFA and broom kid in TLJ - a violation or bypassing of force lore, when it's not lore and is, in fact it's always been, a demonstrably unsound theory?
I don't know. I personally never had problems with those. Times have changed, the Jedi Order no longer exists, nor do its rules. It has become necessary to train Jedi much faster. In the old pre-Empire days there was no need to be that desperate, and the Jedi were content with their rigid rules for becoming a Jedi.
Rey now.... what can I say? I guess I'm biased against her part simply because I don't like the movie.
The fact is that the Jedi controlled force users, for the most part, during a 1000 year period. But they did not control the nature of the force.
It's not surprise that Lucas was interested in this kind of attempt to control the narrative along with controlling people. When he was trying to break into the movies, it was at the tail end of the system where you had to know your place and pay your dues regardless of your talent and drive or feelings about your vision as an artist. Lucas and his generation were saying, but I am the artist, it comes from me. Why do I have to serve this time before being "allowed" to make a movie I already know how to make. IT's why they were called the "brats"
I think the problem for people is that with Luke we see him getting basic instructions and training by Obi-Wan and all he do conscious in ANH is blocking with his lightsabre and doing that one in a million shot and then in ESB (years after) he can barley call upon his lightsabre after falling and then really concentrating before he meet Yoda. And even after his training montage with Yoda he's not that great.
Anakin, who is supposed to be this great Force conduct by the reactions of the Jedi in TPM, stronger than anything they have ever seen, can only use it at an unconscious level during all of TPM.
Rey is suddenly able to do stuff Luke could not do until RotJ and that without any kind of guidance or understanding about the Force.
That's what I think people have problem with
It's more appropriate and accurate to call it exposition(almost verbatim), rather than instruction. Luke is training to block laser blasts. It's during this exercise when Obi Wans explains that, if he is successful, then it will be due to his instinctual control ("partial") and use of the force he should feel flowing through him. This is why he's already such a good pilot and able to bullseye .....etc.
The thing people keep overlooking is that these powers are displayed/discovered/achieved as the story requires them. Not the other way round.
And yes, people with a problem with the amount of films that Rey's been in. So it has more to do with viewer's attitudes towards what kind of story timetable they will permit, based on that used for characters that are already established. Which is another arbitrary and subjective if not not spurious claim to propriety.
How did Rey know how to do a Jedi Mind Trick, or what it even was? Luke was baffled by it in ANH.
And how was she able to use a lightsaber and outduel someone immediately? It's pathetic writing.
It was always Jar Jar Binks being the true Dark Lord Of The Sith
As "fan theories" go, those two that you have posted are pretty poor.
But accurate. The OT makes it clear that Luke has the potential, but needs the training to be where he's at by the time he faces Vader and then goes to rescue Han. Lucas himself states that it takes time to become a Jedi, for those who wish to learn how to be one. The PT paints the same picture. The ST seems to **** all over that idea by having Rey being able to do what she does, without any sort of knowledge or training. That's why there was that popular fan theory that she had to have training, but her knowledge of that was possibly suppressed. The fact is that Abrams and Kasdan have her more skill that she should have had, in order to pull a surprise act and have Rey take care of herself without help from a Jedi.
Snoke is not the all powerful Master many thoght he was, but in fact the student of a more powerful yet unseen individual.
In the TLJ novel it is hinted at that the unknown entity calling to Palpitine in the Aftermath novels might not have been Snoke and that Snoke and his death are part of a larger plan that we have yet to see.
Typically when Luke is at a crossroads in life, the ghosts of Obi-Wan or Yoda come to offer him advice. Why didn't they appear to him before he went into Ben Solo's room, read his mind, and nearly tried to kill him?
It was their Force Ghost Poker Night with Mace Windu, Anakin, and Qui-Gon. It was Yoda's turn to get the snacks, and Obi-Wan would bring the drinks.
That Mace Windu was Snoke. And that there was a nearly 20 minute video about it.