CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

Are the Iron Man films boring?
Robert Downey Jr was over 40 when he made the first one.
In the LotR rings films both Viggo Mortensen and Sean Bean were over 40.
Tom Cruise was over 50 when he made Edge of Tomorrow.
Colin Firth was also over 50 when he made Kingsman, the secret service, and he seriously prodded buttock there.

You shouldn't let ageism limit your ideas.

@DS

I am going by how the scenes play out.
Obi-Wan and Yoda turn to their right to look at Anakin. So those actors would have been told what would happen. Why wasn't Shaw with them? Most likely, they didn't have him there that day.
So he was filmed separately. But why not tell him what it was for? Why lie to him?

Hayden did a costume test and Lucas later used that footage. As far as I know, he wasn't filmed with the intent of using that in RotJ. It was just a costume test. If Lucas did film him, knowing that he would be in the film. Again why lie?

In any event, Shaw works better with the other two. He appears looking to his left at Yoda and Obi-Wan, smiles, nods and then turns towards Luke, still smiling. Hayden appears also looking to his left but he turns away quickly, looks down as if embarrassed and then looks at Luke with a slight creepy smile.
If Lucas wanted to change this, I can see no reason why Hayden wasn't told and his movements were tied to the others and he was allowed to act. It just seems cheap and sloppy.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

True, but in another ten years, you'll have people saying they're too old. They're already doing that with Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher on the ST. They did it with Ford with the last Indiana Jones film. The big name action stars are struggling with the current generation.

In the case of Shaw, it was probably because Prowse had revealed certain things when he wasn't supposed to...



Which angered Lucas and led to his reduced role in ROTJ, being replaced with Anderson for most of the film. My guess is that this lead to Shaw being kept in the dark. With Hayden, it was probably also to avoid letting it out of the bag accidentally.

And that doesn't work how? Being embarrassed works. He would feel a bit weird given this chance after all the **** he did to his best friend and mentor.

 

Yeah I dont see why anakin wouldnt be embarrassed. And hayden was smiling the entire time anyway.

 

And like I said, "Hayden's Anakin has seen that what he did was wrong too" (him crying on Mustafar). The only reason he refused to renounce the dark side is that he wouldn't let go of his fear of losing Padme and what's worse, when Obi-wan showed himself inside Padme's ship, he inadvertently ruined her chances of getting Anakin to see that he's making a huge mistake of becoming a Sith lord. As for Shaw's Anakin, even though it took him learning that Leia is his daughter and Luke being electrocuted to finally motivate him into returning to the light side, he still waited decades to get to that point. Too many people have suffered and died before Anakin could actually see the error of his ways.

The only reason Lucas kept Sebastian Shaw in the unmasking scene is to showcase how much damage the dark side has done to Anakin over the years. The burnt scars combined with the extended usage of the dark side has made Anakin look much older than his actual age just as it did with PalpSidious in ROTS whereas making Hayden the force ghost is a) to return him to the physical form he is before he was burned and b)Lucas's idea of someone being baptised by the force. Sure, nobody had a problem with Shaw as Anakin's ghost at the time because back then, there was no prequel trilogy but as soon as Hayden Christensen was cast as Anakin for AOTC, the ghost scene no longer makes sense. People would wonder how and why Anakin's ghost could still look like Shaw when he became disfigured as a young man from his fight with Obi-wan? Even Obi-wan mentioned that Vader was a "young jedi" when he turned to evil hence why Lucas switched actors for the ghost scene.

 

First, "much older" is debatable. When the OT was made Lucas said that Obi-Wan was supposed to be around 70. The PT makes him more than ten years younger. "Father Skywalker" is not given a specific age but various bits and pieces indicate that he is of an age with Obi-Wan. Red Leader talking about meeting him some 25-30 years ago, Owen's and Beru's apparent age plus the rough draft of RotJ had Anakin come back in the flesh as "an OLD man."
So I think there is enough evidence to say that Lucas originally had in mind an older Anakin for RotJ.
When Lucas made the PT, he made both Anakin and Obi-Wan younger.

Second, having Shaw as the ghost was apparently not Lucas idea. So using him might just be simplicity, they had him handy.

Third, having the ghost of Anakin look older than he is but healed of his direct wounds is perfect as the final image of the character. He is healed yes but the time he spent in the dark side are not removed nor forgotten. The old ghost shows the consequences of his choices, both good and bad. The young ghost instead could imply that all his sins are washed away and the time spent in the dark side are just gone. The old ghost is the image of the good man that turned evil and then redeemed himself but his choices have left their marks on his ghost. The young ghost is the image of the man before he turned, before he went to hell and doesn't do the full character justice in my mind.

Fourth, I disagree that the scene HAD to be changed due to the PT and I think that if Lucas had not changed it, then there would not be a lot of people clamoring for this change.
Hayden first appeared in 2002 as the adult Anakin. I don't recall many if any people arguing that the ghost scene in RotJ had to be altered because of this. Nor do I recall that people were wanting it changed like this, having a young Hayden there. And I also remember back in 2004 when the first images of the "new" ghost scene first appeared on the net. Most comments I saw thought that it was a joke, a prank. And if continuity was all that important then BOTH scenes would be changed. Put Hayden in the unmasking scene as well as the ghost scene.

Lastly, Obi-Wan said "young Jedi" about Vader in the OT and you yourself said that people didn't have a problem with "old" Shaw back then. So that is no reason to change the scene. Plus, as I said above, Lucas had in mind an older Anakin when RotJ was made.
With the PT Lucas made both Anakin and Obi-Wan younger, but he didn't remove "old" Obi-Wan from the OT nor did he remove "old" Anakin from the unmasking scene, the only change was the ghost scene. In ANH both Luke and Owen refer to Obi-Wan as "old" and he is supposed to be in his 50's. Hardly all that old. Even Obi-Wan referred to himself as "old". And Tarkin was convinced that Obi-Wan dead by now. All implying that the character is quite old. Him being in his 50's doesn't quite fit that.

Be seeing you.
Blackboard Monitor

 

In "The Siege Of Lothal", Vader thinks that Obi-wan might still be alive, but Palpatine is skeptical of that notion.

SIDIOUS: "Lord Vader, have you dealt with the rebels in the Lothal system?"

VADER: "Yes, Master. They are broken."

SIDIOUS: "And yet I sense in you something more to your victory."

VADER: "I believe the apprentice of Anakin Skywalker lives and is in league with these rebels."

SIDIOUS: "Are you certain?"

VADER: "It was her."

SIDIOUS: "This is an opportunity we cannot let pass. Skywalker's apprentice could lead us to other lost Jedi."

VADER: "Such as Kenobi."

SIDIOUS: "Perhaps, if he lives. Be patient, my old friend. For now, dispatch another Inquisitor to hunt them down."

VADER: "As you wish, my Master."

Vader had thought that Ahsoka had died between the last time he saw her to when he senses her trying to probe who he was, when the crew of the Ghost was trying to escape from Lothal. Likewise, Palpatine seems to think that Obi-wan might be dead. So even despite their ages, they believed that the Jedi were possibly dead for other reasons. So it no longer centers around age, but other factors.

 

I always thought that Tarkin thinking Kenobi would be dead 'by now' suggests an age factor. Jedi are pretty hard to kill and if Kenobi had been hunted down and killed by agents of the Empire surely word would have got back to the likes of Tarkin. He's a pretty significant figure. Just assuming he's dead, without knowing for sure, indicates that he's pretty old I'd have thought.

 

It could also just mean that, since Obi-Wan was such a high-profile figure and presumably way up on the public enemies list (and not, prior to RotS, the sort of person who would sit out of a fight), the fact that he hadn't been spotted anywhere or even implicated in Rebellion activity in almost two decades might imply that he was just dead in a ditch somewhere.

 

Indeed, it could. If there was no other reference in ANH to his age I'd be happy to lean that way. However, taken with the many other references to his advancing years, by a number of different characters, including himself, I still tend to favour the age interpretation. There are others of course. You're quite right.

 

I don't think they really are 'age' refs. I think they are much more time refs as in 'I have been through so much' or 'I haven't heard active tell of Kenobi in a long time'.

 

Which ones do you mean Cushy? The Tarkin one's more vague, but there are several others where he's specifically referred to as 'old'. It's also worth noting that at this stage Anakin and Vader are two separate people, so one could be much older than the other. The 'young Jedi' Vader could be in his forties in ANH, Anakin, had he been alive, in his 60's, and Kenobi over 70.

 

I think it's merely people assuming by looks.

 

Lucas originally had a lot of things in mind when he made these films. He originally planned for:

-Obi-wan and Owen Lars to be brothers.
-Anakin and Darth Vader to be 2 different characters.
-Leia to be unrelated to Luke and Vader.
-Luke's sister to be someone else.
-The Emperor to be just an ordinary politician.
-The Wookies to fight the Empire instead of the Ewoks.
-Padme to be alive for 2-3 years so that Leia would have memories of her.

Lucas constantly changed his mind during production of each film and ends up putting in stuff that either contradicts the previous film or it was deliberately made to create a plot twist such as what the "I am your father" scene has done. Lastly, if Lucas wanted Anakin to be seen as an old man, he shouldn't have made Obi-wan say that Anakin was a young Jedi when turned to evil because even though Anakin is now established as being 45 years old when he died, he's still young enough for his ghost to look like Hayden.

The old ghost only further contributes to Anakin pretending to be someone he's not. To me, the old ghost represented the Jedi that Anakin was supposed to be but he never had a chance to grow up to be that person due to his injuries and being confined to robotic limbs and an oxygen suit for 2 1/2 decades. Add to the fact that he didn't want to be seen as Anakin Skywalker anymore until he found out that Luke survived Padme's death. At least with the young ghost, Anakin is allowed to return to being the man he once was before he was cut to pieces and horribly burned just like how in the remake of RoboCop, Alex Murphy still sees himself looking exactly he did before he wakes up to find out that he was blown to pieces by a car explosion and is now inside a robot body. I know most people think that making Anakin's ghost young again is viewed as a reward but its actually a punishment as if the force is saying, "You may have restored balance to the force but you still turned your back on the Jedi and helped a Sith lord tear the galaxy apart. Therefore, you will never be seen as Shaw "(who is the real reward).

I've seen a few comments where people had a problem with Shaw as Anakin's ghost even before Hayden was casted for AOTC and ROTS. Plus, even without the continuity, putting Hayden in the unmasking scene still wouldn't make sense because even with the burnt scars, Anakin still ages like every other person but as I said, the dark side accelerated his aging making him look older than he actually is. Lucas wanted to show the effects the dark side had on Anakin so, he kept Shaw in the unmasking scene.

First off, I also said that the prequel trilogy didn't exist at time ROTJ hit theaters which is why nobody had a problem with Shaw. Second, Lucas didn't replace Alec Guinness for a number of reasons such as:

-Alec has been the face of Obi-wan from the very beginning long before Ewan McGregor took over the role. When Lucas filmed ROTS, he had make-up artists touch up Ewan so that he'll look exactly like Alec.
-Storywise, Obi-wan wasn't burned or corrupted by the dark side like Anakin was. Thus, why Obi-wan's ghost gets to remain looking like Alec Guinness.
-Obi-wan is 58 years old in ANH and Alec Guinness is 63 when he played the character. There's a 5 year age difference but Alec is still age appropriate for the role.

As for Anakin, he didn't have a name, face, or an actor to play the character for a long time till Lucas started filming ROTJ. In fact, Anakin and Darth Vader were originally 2 separate characters until Lucas decided to make them the same person in ESB with the "I am your father" scene. Then, he casted Sebastian Shaw as old Anakin for ROTJ and when time came to do the prequels, he casted Jake Lloyd to play kid Anakin and Hayden Christensen as adult Anakin. I already mentioned why Lucas kept Shaw in the unmasking scene but with multiple actors playing the same character, there are plenty of reasons to change the ghost scene. For instance, a) Hayden is the only actor to play Anakin more than once, b) it's no longer logical for the ghost to look like Shaw since he looks more like Luke's grandfather considering that Shaw is 80-something years old, and c) it makes sense that Anakin's ghost is young again to show that he's free of his dark side corruption.

 

I'm not bothered by it but it just seems out of place.

 

I'm pretty sure if you had the ability to be a ghost you could change your appearance, and wouldn't you want to look like you did in your prime?

 

Yes, I would in a heartbeat.


And I've seen this in another story.

 

Yes, that's exactly right. It was implied that Kenobi is old and, given his age, there would be a fair chance he would have died by that time.

 

The problem with using Sebastian Shaw in this scene is that he is a brunette while Hayden is blonde. Padme should have been blonde and Anakin with brown hair.

 

I am glad that Hayden is now the face for Anakin. It is one of the factors that help unite the 2 trilogies. I think him being young also plays into the fantasy element of the films. The films are regarded as sci-fi/fantasy are they not?

But for the simple fact that ghosts are able to appear shouldn't really make anything else to hard to believe. People bring up Yoda and Ben looking the same. Well maybe they were content with how they were when they died? I mean it just takes looking into the ghost aspect to seriously. If we apply the ghost factor to other films, like Ghostbusters for instance why does slimer look like a nasty green glob?

But as been stated many, many times before Shaw still got the best part of the redeemed Anakin scenes in ROTJ. I feel the Shaw scene had the most impact as opposed to the Hayden scene of him just sitting there looking on for a few seconds. I know Anakin did some messed up things but maybe the netherworld of the force isn't that picky with who they let into their gates.

At the end of the day though we still get both Shaw and Hayden so I feel there shouldn't be much of an issue regarding this. It isn't for me anyway. But people are free to see it anyway they choose and that is all good in my book.

 

Great points, thank you. I have always held the belief that the force "ghosts" are largely for the benefit of the audience...a handy way of visually showing us the presence of Jedi that Luke, through the force, can feel all around him. I never believed that ghosts with defined ages and clothing actually, LITERALLY appeared to Luke. In the same way that we can easily imagine potent images of loved ones in an idealized fashion, Luke was thinking about his lost friends..the only difference being Luke's ability to actually sense and communicate with them. It doesn't matter if Shaw's Anakin never wore Jedi robes or had no remaining limbs, Luke's imagination says otherwise.

 

I guess some people couldn't get through Back to the future with Marty being the same age as his mom and dad? Or the movie The heavenly kid where the teens father comes back as a teen ghost to give his teen son pointer in how to be cool?

 

well actually he is.. because Anakin dies as 'handsome 23' and Darth Vader is born...

 

I watching the interview that came right after ESB with Mark Hamill and Harrison Ford yesterday when the interviewer asked them something about a sequel/prequel. And Mark said that a prequel was going to be made about the YOUNG Alec character and how Darth Vader came into power. That took place 20 years earlier. So you guys are wrong. Lucas didnt just come up with them being young for the prequels he knew thier ages.

 

So Force ghosting is time-travel, now?

edit to add:

Mark Hamill saying "young" in an interview is not a smoking-gun for your argument. The script for Star Wars 1977 said that Obi-Wan was about 70. Lucas, in meetings with Kasdan, Marquand, and Kazanjian for ROTJ in 1981, said that Obi-Wan was about 70 in the first SW film. If you do the math, 20 years previous would make him about 50 in the prequels. So yes, Lucas did know their ages, but he then lowered their ages when it came time to make the PT.

In addition, your scenario, whereby the use of the word "young" automatically means 20's or 30's, has it's own problems. Please explain how Obi-Wan would go from "young" - i.e. his PT age(s) - to, "Surely he must be dead by now!!!" in a mere span of 20 years??? Was the typical life-span of a human from the Star Wars galaxy 45-50?