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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by uperduper, May 9, 2015.

  1. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Even Jake Lloyd kid would have made more sense than ROTS Anakin who slaughtered a whole Tusken tribe and went on to slaughter hundreds of Jedi, including kids. At least TPM Anakin seemed like a good person.
     
  2. solo77

    solo77 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 28, 2002
    Wondering who he is? You couldn't tell he's the guy under Vaders mask? o_O
     
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    It's not like we can see much of Vader's face even after the "reveal" - what with massive cheek scars, and the lower half of the mask hiding his chin. Makes "unscarred Vader" a bit harder to recognise.

    I could see why people might struggle.
     
  4. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    How confusing is it if someone watches the movies in release order? Oh, that's "not intended" but before Lucas came along and did his changes this wouldn't be an issue at all.
     
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  5. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 1, 2014
    I always assumed that Sebastian Shaw as Ankain was how he would have looked had he not become Vader, that seemed to make sense to me. This is the version I prefer.

    On the other hand I can also see a little bit of logic in showing Anakin as his younger self when he was last a Jedi, (but at least wearing the correct costume). This may sound controversial but as they've changed the force ghost then I'm amazed they didn't go the whole hog and reshoot the Vader reveal using an aged Hayden too. Because I think at the moment showing Sebastian as an aged Anakin and Hayden as the ghost doesn't quite match, and Luke seeing Anakin as his younger self doesn't seem right because hes totally different looking. So to me it should either be all (reveal and ghost) - Sebastian or all Hayden instead. not a mixture of both.

    Its an issue that divides fans because another the crux of the issue is that the film was over 20 years old when this change was made, its not something that can be hidden away easily, its a huge change to something thats engrained in peoples minds who have grown up with them. When I first saw it was a big shock and I'm sure many fans felt the same. Its almost like Lucas changed things to the OT for people that will watch the trilogy in the future, not necessarily those fans that grew up with it.
     
  6. All_Powerful_Jedi

    All_Powerful_Jedi Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2003
    A) It's weird because neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda are young.

    B) Anakin returned by saving Luke's life and sacrificing his own and that was when he was when he returned to the Light side. The good Anakin died as an old man staring at his son. It undermines the good that old Anakin did to return him to the state he was in before he became enlightened.

    C) We're seeing the scene through Luke's POV, and the father he knew was the old man.
     
  7. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    Sebastian Shaw is perfectly fine as an Anakin who has aged prematurely and has had his vocal cords burned by lava fumes. There's enough wiggle room to say that his appearance and presentation has been altered by his injuries. That excuse doesn't fly for his Force ghost, but it works here.

    But, more importantly, it's a great performance. Replacing footage which Sebastian Shaw didn't even know would be used in the movie (and where he isn't really even acting) is one thing. But I would never want anyone to replace Sebastian Shaw's actual performance. And Lucas clearly felt the same way.


    You can be a good person even after you've done terrible things. That's, like, the whole point of Vader's redemption arc. Shaw's ghost implied that the past had been erased, and that Anakin was only good because the Force agreed to "forget" all the bad things he did as Darth Vader. Christensen's ghost acknowledges Anakin's sins while affirming his basic humanity.
     
  8. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    What does that even mean? Even ANH Tarkin had "basic humanity", "basic humanity" is nothing to be proud of.
     
  9. Dark-lord97

    Dark-lord97 Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 8, 2014
    I refuse to admit the existance of the special editions. The original unaltered versions are the only ones for me.
     
  10. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I've introduced people to Star Wars (by release order) and they didn't have a problem understanding who the third ghost is supposed to be. The narrative does its job.
     
  11. darkspine10

    darkspine10 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Doesn't Obi-Wan say that Anakin 'died' when he became Darth Vader? So it makes sense for his ghost to look like he did when he 'died'.
     
  12. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Most people sure don't act like he does, Pevra and that's quite sad. Humanity is a universal truth of Humans and yes we're all flawed but we all have potential as well. No matter how 'lost' we appear to others.

    TPC: That's the whole point of forgiveness and redemption: undeserved pardon and moving on. It does NOT imply removing who someone is at all, simply not holding it against them anymore. It likewise implies concerned person would be permanently *changed*.

    Obi does say that, yes, but clearly he's in denial. Anakin didn't die till RotJ.
     
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  13. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Death Star 2. If Anakin died, why did he come back? Obi-Wan believed he was beyond redemption remember?
    You can see Anakin start to come back at the end of ESB. I think a small part of Anakin was always there, just enough to keep him alive.
     
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  14. TK-421 Is vader

    TK-421 Is vader Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2015
    couldnt.No resemblance between a normal guy and someone who is bald and pure white.If they had put a shot of unaltered ian mcdiarmiad in, would you have realised who he was?
     
  15. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin all died in the trilogy. All Force-sensitives. Then we see 3 Force Ghosts, who on earth could be the 3rd FG if not Anakin? Palpatine?
     
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  16. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    To me? Nothing. That's clearly how Anakin wanted Luke to remember him, and it also shows his spiritual transformation back from "more machine than man" to a bastion of light quite effectively.
     
  17. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    But Haydenkin hardly symbolizes a "bastion of light", if anything Jake Lloyd Anakin does it much better.


    I can't agree with that because Anakin and Darth Vader are the same person. They're inter-changeable. There is no "Anakin Skywalker" in hiding, it is all the same person. It was Darth Vader/Anakin who fell and it was Darth Vader/Anakin who turned back to the light. And the guy who turned back was ... the guy who looks like Shaw! Only that guy finally understood and made the right choice, the same guy who experienced decades of death and the destruction.

    Only Obi-Wan and Vader pretended like they were not the same person, but Luke proved both of them wrong in the end.
     
  18. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I have debated this several times in other threads so I'll post what I wrote here:
    http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-official-anakins-spirit-poll.50016134/page-9

    Shaw makes all the sense and Hayden makes little sense. What might work is the "residual self image" thing from the Matrix films.

    AS for the wounds, Obi-Wan's ghost has no wounds from Vader's lightsabre. So Force-Ghosts are clearly healed of their wounds.
    And if we got with Hayden, the hair style is RotS era Hayden but that era Hayden was also missing an arm.
    So does the Hayden ghost miss an arm?

    So Shaw as Anakin's ghost isn't what Anakin would have looked like if he never turned. It was he looks like with his burns healed and his scars gone but the premature ageing that he suffered due to the suit, that is still there.
    So he is to me the best image of the full character of Anakin Skywalker, one that shows the complet journey of the character and not the first part of it.

    And Anakin was a Jedi for a brief time on the DS2 so RotS wasn't the last time he was a Jedi, he became one again before the end. And to me, a better Jedi than he had ever been before.

    As is, either put Hayden in both scenes, allow him to act and have some old age make up in the ghost scene. Or don't change it. This half measure is both cheap and lazy. Lucas didn't even tell Hayden about this. Why?
    Was he afraid that Hayden would say no or that he would want to act?
    That this is apparently what was done to Shaw with the ghost scene is no excuse. Both should have been told and been allowed to do their job.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
  19. Rabs

    Rabs Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2014
    I'm indifferent to this change. But I always figured that, since as a Force ghost you don't really have a physical form, you can appear as you choose. And that's how Anakin probably viewed himself the last time he truly felt like Anakin. Yoda and Obi-Wan had no reason to feel disgust about themselves when they died so have no desire to look the way they did in better times.
     
  20. MotivateR5D4

    MotivateR5D4 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 20, 2015
    Anything I would say on this matter has already been mentioned. But I do have some thoughts for discussion on this topic.

    Do you think it is possible we will get some kind of explanation at some point in the upcoming trilogy or anthology movies as to why Anakin's younger self ghost appeared to Luke and not Anakin's older self? Would something like that put this issue to rest? It could be explicitly stated or merely implied why Ben's older ghost appeared as opposed to Anakin's younger ghost. Since the Force is all binding and with their combined Jedi mastery, could it be possible that Ben and Yoda's perception of Anakin as his younger self could have been superimposed on the way Luke perceived the whole event (especially when you consider how Yoda set up that whole Vader confrontation for Luke on Dagobah)?

    Obviously this isn't some great plot point, but I think at some point over the next six films it is worthy of a Jedi discussion, whoever is training who at that point. It wouldn't even have to directly reference Luke and the final moments of ROTJ, could be an explanation about a totally different set of circumstances, but circumstances that are similar to Luke in which the explanation given can certainly be applied to him.

    Also, since Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin's ghosts are the only ones we have seen so far, would it bring Luke's journey to become a Jedi full circle if he appears as a ghost when he eventually dies? I mean, other than Yoda telling him if he kills Vader he will be one, nobody really tells Luke he is now a Jedi, he isn't exactly officially knighted by the council.

    And lastly, all the mention of the big four (Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Luke), but what if other Force ghosts were to appear in the films? Like Qui-Gon or any other Jedi we see in the PT, or Luke or Leia's descendants who become Jedi (since the Force is so strong in their family). I know a few have appeared in the TCW, and since the EU is no longer canon we can't really use that as a reference. But to what extent do you all think Force ghosts should be seen and used in the upcoming trilogy? And going back to my original question, could such sequences potentially explain why Anakin appeared as his younger self when he became a Force ghost?
     
  21. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    I want to add that even though I defended the Hayden version in my previous post, I think both versions work well.
     
  22. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2013
    It's because it's one of Lucas' pointless edits to the OT just because Lucas "changed his mind" about how Anakin should look as a Force Ghost. It's like the Greedo Shot First edit. Lucas suddenly changes his mind one day, and now we all have to be affected by it. JK Rowling changed her mind on who Hermione should marry, and we don't see her going off and reprinting the books with that edit. I'm personally sick of Lucas' crappy edits based on personal choice, which is the one reason why I'm glad he sold the franchise.
     
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  23. roguesquadpod

    roguesquadpod Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 13, 2014
    Luke wouldn't recognize the younger version of his father is the main issue with the change.
     
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  24. mes520

    mes520 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012

    I imagine Luke senses that it's his father through the Force.
     
  25. Avnar

    Avnar Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2007
    Everything!
     
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