CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

As far as "head cannon" goes, yours ain't bad at all. Heck of a lot better than the explanation George Lucas (and others on this board) was trying to sell.

 

I agree, I don't know why Jedi can't appear how they want to. And if Ewan McGregor ends up as a force ghost in the next movie, it really will just add to that continuity.

I think Shaw was too old to end up as an Anakin force ghost, so it would almost make more sense for them to get Christensen back into the studio now that he's older for new special editions. But given the reaction to him there in the first place, I can't imagine that Disney will touch this with a 10 foot pole.

 

Not everything is explained in the films. Why do the Lightsabers come in only four colors, with purple being the most rare? The films don't explain it. Why didn't Han pay off his debt to Jabba? What was so valuable that Jabba would put a huge bounty on his head? Why can't the Jedi sense Palpatine is a Sith in front of them? What happened to Threepio's leg between ROTS and ANH, and his arm between ROTJ and TFA? Sure, these things are explained elsewhere, but not in the films.

That's why it is a metaphor. When Anakin is sent to the Temple to eliminate the Jedi there and then to Mustafar, that action is where he loses his soul.

You're thinking too much about it. If you applied this much effort into the rest of the films, you'd see that the whole thing is weak. All of them.

He's acknowledging that he's evil now, but he won't stop himself.

Some makeup and hair dye make all the difference.

 

That's true that not everything is explained. And not everything needs to be. My issue is not with a lack of explanation, but rather with the apparent contradiction, a contradiction that requires outside knowledge to resolve. And when there exist multiple versions of the film, I will prefer the one that has less contradictions and makes more sense within the rules of its established universe.

A metaphor is a figurative term that highlights similarities between two things. For example, the Force is a metaphor for religion. But you don't need to understand religion to understand the Force, because the Force is explained to us in the movie. In contrast to this, understanding the Faust thing (and the rules for how souls work) seems to be necessary in understanding why the young Anakin Force ghost doesn't follow precedence. Therefore, it's not a metaphor; it's a plot device. Specifically, it's an unexplained plot device. The Shaw version of the ghost better follows this established precedence; so I like that one better.

I'm actually not thinking too much about it at all. And that's why I like the original version better. It works so well and makes sense with what came before it. Not much thought needs to be put into it for it to make sense. The 2004 version is the one that requires extra thought and outside knowledge to make sense of. Also, my point is not that it's weak. I'm merely advocating for the superiority of one version over the other. The theatrical version better adheres to things established in the previous movies and doesn't require outside knowledge to make sense of, and so I like that version better.

 

What rules? There was no rules established other than what Qui-gon told Yoda in the script and the novelization. As to the Lucas quotes, whether or not you want to go with it, they're out there so that people understand why he chose to change it. It doesn't matter if you read and listen to them.

Lucas never established any rules. He just said that Anakin went back to where he was before he turned. That's not a rule, that's just what he said. You're the one who sees it as a rule and takes it beyond being simple. You don't have to have knowledge of religion or souls, since there is no hard and fast rule for it.

 

Great, no rules. No souls. No Faustian pacts. No devil. Let's look at the events at face value, as they are presented in the movies. Which version of the ghost flows better with the previous movies? I'd say Shaw Anakin since he appears the age at which he died, which is in line with Obi-wan and Yoda. Simple. Not much thought required. Hayden Anakin as the ghost breaks this flow. That is my overall point, and is the reason I prefer Shaw Anakin over Hayden Anakin as the ghost (and because I think it works better for the story).

 

But again, there is nothing that says in any fictional or alleged ghostly encounter, that a ghost will look like they did when they died, or if they will look younger. After all, Jacob Marley didn't die with chains wrapped around him.

 

"Forget it Jake, it's Lucastown."

 

I was so attached to a guy who died 3 minutes after being unmasked that I cried for 30 years straight. Best acting OF ALL TIME!!!!!! I can't believe they replaced the only Anakin with anyone else. I'm also upset Anakin was not Luke's stepfather like I theoried back in 1984.

#PweqwillsAreEvil

 

That's true. But having it be that way follows the pattern that was established in the previous Star Wars movies which, for me, makes it more enjoyable. And again, I'm not saying that the young Anakin ghost ruins the movie; I'm just saying that the older one flows better with what came before. And because I do have the option, I will pick that one. But if the soul theory works for you and you like the young Anakin ghost better, then that's fine too. That's the great thing about having multiple versions. If one version isn't your cup of tea, then simply watch another version.

 

I'm pretty sure that there is no way to take a 44 year old Ewan McGregor and make him look 75 in any way that's realistic. And frankly, why would they need to? It's a ghost!

 

This is the only explanation I have read that made me go "Oh yeah - I could buy that"

Well done!

 

theMaestro wrote

If one version isn't your cup of tea, then simply watch another version.

If it were only that easily possible, Mr. Lucas has tried to make that rather impossible by preventing the original, theatrical version in to be legally available in a palatable HD video format.

 

Well it might be a legal grey area, but I strongly recommend Harmy's Despecialized editions. They look absolutely amazing. The v2.5 versions basically use the Blu-ray + 35mm film scans to make HD versions of the theatrical films. Their existence makes me not that torn up over the lack of an official release. And, if you prefer, Team Negative-1 also has 35mm film restorations of the original films in the works. One of these for Star Wars has already been released. Additionally, Mike Verta's restoration will probably be pitched to Lucasfilm this year and so maybe we might get an official release out of that. So things aren't so bad if you want to watch the original films. There are already great options available with hopefully even better options in the future.

 

Lucas DID establish rules. By having ghost Obi-Wan a) be healed of his wound and b) look, sound and talk like he was right before his death.
Yoda doesn't talk but he looks the same age as when he died.
So the rules are simple, a Force ghost looks, sounds and talk just like the person was before he/she died. And they are healed of their wounds.
The old ghost of Anakin followed those rules, same age, no wounds, the only difference was clothes. The Anakin ghost didn't wear the Vader suit.

Now the internal logic of the films are broken and no explanation is given IN the films.
Lucas quotes are not IN the film so they don't matter.

So instead we have all manner of fan theories.
Residual self image, Anakin wanted to look like that, the Force is rewarding Anakin for destroying the Sith, turning to the Dark Side gives you a young Force ghost, when Anakin turned his mind and soul left his body and a dark side demon called Darth Vader posessed it, Anakin LITTERALY died in RotS and Vader is just a zombie, Anakin's soul died in RotS and has been lost in limbo for 25 years.

The PT makes it even worse as there we are told that this ability needs to be learned.
Since we know that Anakin never learned it, his ghost even being there is a contradiction to that.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

The PT makes it even worse as there we are told that this ability needs to be learned.
Since we know that Anakin never learned it, his ghost even being there is a contradiction to that.

Samuel Vimes, Anakin learned the skill at the gates of death, or however you want to phrase it. Yoda and Kenobi's spirits came to him and guided/educated him through the process.

Questions not answered in the films but clarified by creator comments, novelizations etc. have always been the stuff of Star wars fandom. Rejecting the writer/producer's explanation just because it isn't in the movie is kinda silly, IMO.

To be clear, I prefer Sebastian Shaw in the scene because it's less complicated, and it's the version I grew up with as a kid. But I don't buy your reasoning for dismissing Lucas' statements. You're under no obligation to accept his clarifications, of course, but let's be clear that your judgment is based on your own personal preference. You seem to be tossing out perfectly reasonable explanations only because you don't like the end result.

 

Where have you been? Hollywood has been making young actors look like older actors for years.





That makeup won an Oscar for making Brad Pitt, who was in his 40's look older than he was. But then, what the Academy know about doing that?

That's still not a hard and fast rule. The young ghost follows those same rules, only he's younger.

Why should we take fan theories as gospel since they're not in the film either.

Except Obi-wan and Yoda teach him that. That's why we see them first and then Anakin fades in. It's always been that way since 1981.

In the rough draft…Ben explains that…if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

--Laurent Bouzereau, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.

 

Two of the most convincing age make-ups were done way back in the 1970s: Dustin Hoffman in Little Big Man and Max Von Sydow in The Exorcist. Both were done by Dick Smith, who also did David Bowie's aging in The Hunger. All extremely photo-real effects, owing to the right choices of materials and design conforming to the contours of the actors' faces.

Most people who watch The Exorcist today are not even aware that Von Sydow had make-up on at all. He was only 40-something at the time, and still had lustrous skin and golden-blonde hair. Hollywood could absolutely " take a 44 year old Ewan McGregor and make him look 75 in any way that's realistic" if they hired the right person for the job.

 

Except this is never said or implied IN the film. So we are left with the question of how Anakin did this.
Before you could see it as simply this, a Jedi that dies totally at peace can return as a ghost.

I might research things for discussions like this. But I won't do homework just to simply WATCH a movie. If some book says that Sifo-Dyas really did order the clone army and Obi-Wan was just wrong about him dying before the order was placed. If Lucas wants the audience of the FILM to know that then he should put it IN the film and not in a book.
Otherwise the films don't stand on their own.

I judge ALL films by the same measure. SW is no exception. I don't give credit to things not IN the movie for a very simple reason, it wasn't IN the movie. If a filmmaker wants me, the audience, to be aware of something and then doesn't put it in the film. Then it doesn't count. And if it's absence creates a plot hole or makes a character seem like an idiot, then it is the filmmakers fault for not including it in the film.
Ex. I found the villain Nero in JJ's first Trek film to be underdeveloped and his actions made little sense. I do know that a tie in comic gave extensive background to the character and explained why he did what he did. But since that isn't IN the film, Nero remains a poor and underdeveloped villain.

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Except the film offers NO explanation. Anakin's ghost is just young, no reason given why. Had Lucas put some sort of explanation IN the film then depending on if it made sense or not, it might have worked.

I've seen a number of fan theories, Vader is just Anakin's animated corpse with a dark side demon in it. Residual self image, a reward from the Force etc.
But they are just that, fan theories.
Same with how Leia can remember Padme when Luke can't. The films don't explain that either but there are plenty of fan theories. Leia is a Time Lord, the Force gave Leia these memories, Leia is talking about Bail's first wife, Bail showed Leia pictures of Padme etc.

In both cases I view it just an inconsistency that Lucas didn't bother to explain. And if he can't be bothered to put an explanation IN the movie, then I won't do his work for him.

In closing, I prefer Shaw as he doesn't violate the films internal logic, he is someone that Luke knows unlike Hayden. His happy smile fits the scene better.
And most importantly, he is a more fitting image of the full character arc of Anakin Skywalker.

If Lucas really wants Hayden there, put him in both scenes and allow him to do his job and act.
That I might actually buy, not this lazy and cheap half-measure.
On top of that, Lucas didn't even have the common decency to tell Hayden about this, he found out through the press.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Re-watch the scene. Both Jedi Masters are standing there first, before Anakin fades in. Obi-wan and Yoda both turn to look at him and Obi-wan has a knowing smile, as does Anakin. And given that in ROTS we are told that training is required, we can easily infer that they helped him.

You don't need commentary or books to understand it. The film explains it.

JANGO: "I was recruited by a man called Tyranus, on the moon of Bogden."


SIDIOUS: "Welcome home, Lord Tyranus."

DOOKU: "I bring good news, the war has begun."

SIDIOUS: "Excellent. Everything is proceeding as planned."


SIDIOUS: "Commander Cody, the time has come. Execute Order 66."

CODY: "It will be done, my Lord."

Lucas figured people were smart enough to connect the dots.

 

I think this is how many of the prequel-generation fans (self included) see the Hayden-As-Ghost decision. To us, the story of Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker, played by Hayden Christensen, so to have him as the redeemed ghost at the end of ROTJ brings an enormous sense of closure and catharsis.

 

It's a dumb, pointless change, and it doesn't even look good on top of all that.

 

Nothing, I only wished Lucas had used another shot of HC.
he should look more serious, have a look on his face like he found his peace, but still regrets what he had done over the last 20+ years.

 

Because he looks smug.

Because it's really jarring after three movies with no sight of what Luke's father really looked like, and makes a certain viewing order necessary.

Because it's simply a belated and gratuitous way of tangibly connecting the two trilogies.

Because it's clearly outwith GL's stated intention to fix things that he had intended to do originally but technically couldn't.

 

That's really the extra salt in the wound isn't it? It still would have been a terrible change but it might've helped a little if at least looked good and well the end result just looks pretty bad IMO.