CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

We see Anakin as a good man during most of AotC while also showing his arrogance and his strained father/son relationship with Obi-wan, then the first half of RotS where we see he matured during the war, has a brotherly relationship with Obi-Wan and who keep each other's backs, even when Palpatine wanted to leave him behind Anakin refused but as the movies goes on, things go downhill because the movies were about his downfall, so they have to show his flaws but also the good side that's why GL decided to show him as a 9-year-old who "knew nothing of greed" in TPM.

 

What does Anakin do that shows him as a good person in AOTC? Commit mass murder against a clan of Tusken Raiders? Advocate for a dictatorship?

Probably because it made no sense for Palpatine to be in such a hurry when he was perfectly content during the whole duel with Dooku.

Also, I should mention that the whole "Anakin was a hero of the Clone Wars" argument really doesn't matter, since ROTS states that "there are heroes on both sides" and there really was no "good" side in the war.

 

Mixed messages.

 

Like saving Padme from being killed while in her sleep and Obi-Wan from being killed by a bounty hunter? Advocating for a dictatorship doesn't make one evil just like systems deciding join the separatists aren't necessarily evil people though he was probably half-joking and just wanted to tease Padme.

Or because Obi-Wan was his former master and his friend so he didn't want to leave him behind, showing he's not all bad despite making some dubious decisions after all.

He probably did some act of heroism during the Clone Wars, like freeing systems from the separatist oppression or saving the population or other Jedi such as Obi-Wan multiple times from dangerous situations. Things like that.

 

I don't agree.
It would not have been difficult for Lucas to hire a younger actor, say in his 30's.
Do the unmasking scene with heavy makeup and then in the ghost scene he can looks much younger.
If Lucas goal was for the ghost to be Anakin pre-turn, that would have been easy.
And since the audience has just seen this actor in the death scene, they would recognize him in the ghost scene.
Ian McDiarmid was less than 40 when he made RotJ and he played a supposed very old Emperor.

But given that he cast an actor in his 80's and the RotJ script called Anakin's ghost "Elderly" then I think it is clear that Lucas wanted the image to be of the Jedi Anakin was once again.

As I've said in the other thread, Anakin died a Jedi.
And to me, given the PT, a better Jedi than he ever was before.
Only then was he able to let go of his anger and fear and his need to cling to life and fight death.
He let go and was at peace.
So to me, the old ghost is a far better image of Anakin at peace.
His younger version, aside from having done a lot of bad, was filled with anger and had not been able to let go of his troubles and conquer his demons.

Had Lucas put Hayden there, with old age makeup and allow him to actually act, then I think the scene might have worked better.

As for Boba, that his voice is different is easy to understand.
How a voice sounds is not just down to genetics.
What voices you are exposed to growing up, yes Boba had jango there until he was eight then no longer. If the person that took care of his after that had a different voice, Boba's voice could and would most likely change.
Illness and injury can also alter a voice.
Drinking and smoking can do the same.
How you use your voice also matters. If you yell a lot, the voice can get more hoarse.

So this didn't need to be changed and as I said about the Hayden ghost, had it not been changed, few if any would quibble about it.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Anakin was with Obi-Wan when Padme was almost assassinated, so Obi-Wan still would have probably saved her if Anakin wasn't there. Also, catching a friend who is possibly falling to their demise isn't really a heroic act. It's doing something any person would do in that situation.

All of which we don't see him do in the film themselves, save for him saving Obi-Wan a few times.

 

Well, he risked his life to save Obi-Wan Kenobi in that same act. He also risked his life (people DIE in pod racing) to raise funds for Padme and Qui-Gon so that they could get off-planet. And let's not forget his first dream, to free all the slaves.

 

On two occasions in the prequel trilogy, Anakin slaughtered children. He slaughtered a tribe of Tusken Raiders including children in Attack of the Clones, and he slaughtered a room full of Jedi younglings in Revenge of the Sith. He was hardly a good man in the prequel trilogy.

 

Yes, Hence my saying I don't see how.

Not mostly. Entirely. As I said I don't see how it's smug.

Sorry but I find that really twisting one's self into a pretzel to come up with the conclusion wanted in the first place.

We only know that because he resembles the person that was behind the Vader mask who happens to be Luke's father.

Actually we know that because he's standing as a Jedi Force ghost beside Obi-Wan and Yoda and is seen and recognized by Luke.

If you haven't seen prequel movies you have to make a few assumptions that this completely unfamiliar smiling person standing next to Yoda is a young version of the last person we saw die, Luke's father.

Luke clearly recognizes the man in Jedi robes beside his friends. This idea of complete unfamiliarity is just plain odd as the scene with the scarred, unmasked Anakin is a minute long. Have you never come across someone who is a bit confused over who is standing besides Obi-Wan and Yoda? I have. They sort of clue in that it must be Anakin and ask me if it is. This is for the original version. Of course after the prequels and being very familiar with 3 of the most successful movies in history, two of which have HC as Anakin that isn't even a question as they know right away it's him.

We have no point of reference for why, if it is Luke's father, he appears as the way that he does.

Which is my point. In the original version there is no clear point of reference. It's in part taken that it must be him due to the context regardless that we really are never told how it's possible.

What I find so very odd is that is something Lucas constantly uses yet there are those that only complain about it when there is something they don't like not when there is something they do like. Why don't they complain about it when it used for something they like?

Not ignoring but I don't see what your point is supposed to be. Anakin is a character in all six movies in various guises as JL, HC, DP, JEJ's voice etc etc.

I don't know what you are suggesting. Once Lucas cast an actual Anakin in the PT then having that actor be Anakin in ROTJ only makes sense. The original context is forever gone.

Exactly. What's your point?

I don't follow. He had to make the movies first and create Anakin.

We don't need to wonder. He said so at the time and told us the development over and over again.

Again this all goes back to TESB when he screwed up everything and combined Anakin and Vader into one person but people wanted the hero Anakin to be the actual Anakin but that doesn't work for the story as he had to favor the Vader side for the prequels because Anakin could no longer be the pure hero and friend of Obi-Wan. Now he had to be the impatient student.

Where are all the complaints against TESB? That is the movie that lead to how everything else turned out.

So loyalty to family and friends means nothing. Well I'm convinced. Luke is a terrible person as you can find. Imagine him saving Han like that or wanting to save his mass murdering father. Luke is clearly not a good person. To think that some people give Padme grief but let Luke slide!!

Luke whines and complains and wants to save a mass killer as well as save his friends and..

He really is just the worst person ever!!

 

Both your examples were things he did as a child, not a Jedi.

When did Luke kill a defenseless prisoner? When did Luke advocate for a dictatorship?

 

LOL!

Don't mean to alarm you, but I do believe your pants are on fire.

What on God's green earth would be odd about that? Of course people complain about things they don't like and enjoy things they do. Did you take you medication today?

 

Meh it's nothing serious Anakin died in the moment when he fell to the Dark Side It was part of his destiny be Vader
And when he died he returned to the light to be Anakin Skywalker there's nothing wrong with that
And also as it is the chosen one it makes sense that his ghost appears like Anakin Skywalker
In fact in Legends the ghost of Luke appeared like young

The problem with this is the OT elitists they are critical until the smallest detail of the prequels but they applaud the lightsaber helicopters in Rebels or they applaud Mary Sue as main character

Like it or not the ghost of Anakin Skywalker is canon

 

I've said this before, I think, but I recently rewatched ROTJ so it's on my mind: this would have been SO much more of an acceptable change if it hadn't been so shoddily done. They basically just pasted a random headshot of HC onto Shaw's body, so we get Anakin's ghost wearing a style of Jedi robes he never wore in life and having a rather inappropriate smirk. It's pretty lackluster work and very distracting.

 

I agree with that the ghost of Anakin had to appear like Hayden but they executed him in a bad way
I think they could have made a better scene with Hayden

 

Sebastian Shaw's ghost is the ghost of Anakin Skywalker. When did anybody ever question whether or not the ghost of Anakin Skywalker is canon?

I'm a fan of both the unaltered versions and the updated versions. There are many changes that I like. This is not one of them. It is an awful change for so many reasons. The original version was perfect for 21 years. Nobody questioned it. If new fans are watching the saga in release order for the first time and have no foreknowledge of Hayden Christensen portraying Anakin, they're not going to have any idea who he is when he appears a Force ghost. If new fans are watching the saga in episode order for the first time, they'll know that Hayden Christensen portrays Anakin, but the big reveal that Vader is Luke's father will be spoiled for them.

 

I think everyone and even the kids know that Vader is Luke's father I believe that if a child sees today the Return of the Jedi for the first time he will have no problem with seeing the Anakin of Hayden

I think he could start to see the prequels without any problem

 

I think that was the point.

"If you see them in order it completely twists things about. A lot of the tricks of IV, V and VI no longer exist. The real struggle of the twins to save their father becomes apparent, whereas it didn't exist at all the first time [audiences saw Episodes IV, V and VI]. Now Darth Vader is a tragic character who's lost everything. He's basically a bitter old man in a suit.

"I am your father" was a real shock. Now it's a real reward. Finally, the son knows what we already know.

It's a really different suspense structure. Part of the fun for me was completely flipping upside down the dramatic track of the original movies. If you watch them the way it was released, IV, V, VI, I, II, III - you get one kind of movie. If you watch I through VI you get a completely different movie. One or two generations have seen it one way, and the next generations will see it in a completely different way.

It's an extremely modern, almost interactive movie making. You take blocks and move them around, and you come out with different emotional states."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

 

Two of them, yes. But he risked his life to save Obi-Wan in ROTS when they were on the Invisible Hand.

 

And he also saved a lot of people on Coruscant thanks to his piloting skills.

 

But this doesn't take into account the fact that those who watch the saga for the first time in release order and aren't aware of the fact that Christensen played Anakin aren't going to recognize him as a Force ghost. Lucas' logic works with Sebastian Shaw as the Force ghost. Actually, the quotes you posted don't even take the change into account.

 

If you think it's shoddy then it is for you. I don't think so at all.

Why some people think he's smirking or whatever is their own problem. I really don't think anything would please someone who is against it anyway.

By that logic why would anyone have ever any idea of who this person was in the first place? Yet somehow Luke, Obi-Wan and Yoda know. How could they possibly know?

The even bigger series of reveals that Anakin becomes Vader, Palpatine is Sidious, Padme dies, the birth of the twins, the Jedi are destroyed, the Empire rises, the Clones betrayal and on and on is spoiled if they watch in release order.

That it's not much to ask to recognize that the method is the same so vehemently complaining about it in the one while praising in the other doesn't work very well.

So no answer then only distraction. Which makes my point. When Luke kills or wants to kill someone it's alright but when Anakin does then there is a problem.

 

How could they possibly know what? If you're referring to Christensen as Anakin's Force ghost, Obi-Wan and Yoda both knew him in life. If you are referring to Christensen replacing Shaw as Anakin's Force ghost, then you are correct that Luke wouldn't recognize him, an argument that critics of the change have made time and time again, one of many reasons why the change shouldn't have been made. If you're referring to Shaw as Anakin's Force ghost, again, Obi-Wan and Yoda both knew him in life and Luke had just unmasked him moments earlier.

 

That's quite ironic. Didn't I ask what heroic deeds did Anakin do in AOTC, only for you to reply with "But Luke did this"?

Luke shooting some Stormtroopers in self defense is quite different from Anakin decapitating a defenseless old man, something that even Anakin admitted "was not the Jedi way". You're trying to find double standards here, but they don't exist.

That is completely false. Most OT purists I know don't even care about the cartoons. I also know plenty that were displeased with TFA.

So? Canon is something that is always evolving. One day, LFL could just randomly decide the Shaw ghost is canon. Canon is pretty much meaningless.

 

Viewers don't care about method, they care about execution. What "works" is up to the viewer. It's called discernment and having an opinion.

 

according to Obi-Wan it was a good thing. He listed reasons why today he was the "poster boy" and that "deserved his day with the politicians!"

killing count Dooku was one of them.


sorry for being off-topic.

But yeah.. As I've said many times

Shaw all the way. I say this not as a fan but as somebody who watches with casual viewers who don't think it makes sense Hayden being there.