CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

Once again thought the older body does not go into the Force and he does not appear in that form.

Qui-Gon does not take his body into the Force and cannot appear in that form. Obi-Wan and Yoda take their bodies into the Force and can appear in that form. Anakin does not take his dark side corrupted and injured body into the Force and does not appear in that form but does appear in the younger pre-Vader form (basically before he pledges to the Sith).

This is not something he trained for so for some reason not explained onscreen (like so many other things in Star Wars) this is what happened.

So for something that was not explained onscreen to say that there is some indisputable way it must happen doesn't work. In the context of the OT having an older or younger Anakin works. One can argue both have problems.

In the context of the overall saga the much older Anakin who never existed really doesn't work while the younger Anakin who did really does work. The problem then seems to be not that HC the actor appearing as Anakin but that he is too young and should have been made up to be older looking.

But for many that really is not the problem at all. They simply don't want the actor HC in there and want the actor SS in there because he was for 21 years. If it was simply about the age then their concerns would be addressed by the actor HC being made to look older.

 

Ah you must be talking about the 2004 or 2011 versions. In the original versions, Anakin appears as the age when he dies. And it makes sense because all prior ghosts have appeared at the age when they died. Qui-Gon was still new at it and didn't perfect the technique in time for himself, but did teach the others. As for Anakin, I believe Lucas' explanation for why he can do it despite not disappearing is because Yoda & Obi-Wan saved his soul or something like that. So it all fits with the ghost being Shaw. I guess your justification for the change can work as well.

Hmmm. Going off of the first statement, I guess it means that your second statement is very much disputable. In the context of the overall saga, the Shaw ghost works quite well. Since we're talking about ghosts here, their appearance doesn't have to follow some kind of rigid rule like "He never 100% existed in that form and so the ghost doesn't work". Ghosts are mysterious and work in mysterious ways. Who are we to claim that they can't take on a hypothetically complete version of themselves, especially if the rules & logistics of this technique are "not explained onscreen"?

....Huh? HC wasn't made to look older. He was made to look 22. Plus, making him look older wouldn't solve the issue of a different actor playing him in the unmasking scene. But do I think that Shaw should be replaced with Hayden for that scene? Absolutely not! I don't think Hayden could pull off those lines convincingly.

 

Anakin's body doesn't go into the Force like Obi-Wan or Yoda. It simply does not happen. They trained for this and he didn't.

There is no change. The story is the same. The only visual adjustment is from an older Anakin who never existed and never could exist to an Anakin who did.

So you fully admit that the older non-existent Anakin is disputable then?

As we know there is 1) what actually exists in the movie now and 2) how Force Ghosts actually work in the movies ie Obi-Wan and Yoda 3) Lucas explanations which are in TCW, scripts, novels and from his own statements.

The HC ghost works perfectly.

You have to go a long way to try to make sense of the SS ghost.

There is no problem there at all. Having a scarred machine man Vader who looks far older than Anakin would naturally is not a problem at all.

So again it really has to do with the actor as opposed to the story. HC could pull off those lines with no problem just as he did in AOTC and ROTS where he gave arguably the best 2 performances in any Star Wars movie.

ROFL! There is no creepy look in the eyes.

Then why didn't his body into the Force? Why didn't he for that matter instantly heal through the Force into the SS ghost form then disappear?

This is the thing that cannot be got around. It's clearly different from Obi-Wan and Yoda but somehow some people want it to be what they consider the same even when it clearly isn't.

It's the storyteller's story. If Lucas had kept the SS version then that would be fine with me. When he adjusted his story that was the story. Why anyone is telling the storyteller what his story should be I don't know. It's his story not ours.

 

Yeah, I know.

No there was a change. Remember how it was Shaw in 1983 and 1997? Now it's Hayden. So there is a change. Also, young Anakin never had those robes on and in his ROTS form, he was also missing in arm; so by your logic, he never existed either. But I don't use that logic since it's way too rigid to when talking about mystical beings like ghosts.

Disputable how? Disputable in the sense that it might not work for some people because of how they choose to interpret things? Sure.

Which movie? The 1983 original or the 2011 version? Shaw very much exists in the 1983 version while Hayden exists in the 2011 version.

Actually, the movies don't explain a single thing about how they work. All they say is that Qui-Gon discovered the technique and taught it to the others.

If the movies can work by themselves, then I'm good and don't need all that other stuff.

Not perfectly since....you know, he's the only ghost that's able to become young. And so we have to invent explanations to justify that.

Not really. I explained it in just a few sentences. Here it is again in case you forgot: "And it makes sense because all prior ghosts have appeared at the age when they died. Qui-Gon was still new at it and didn't perfect the technique in time for himself, but did teach the others. As for Anakin, I believe Lucas' explanation for why he can do it despite not disappearing is because Yoda & Obi-Wan saved his soul or something like that. So it all fits with the ghost being Shaw."

Well he looks older because he is older. The problem arises when his ghost regresses in age.

Not quite. The actor's ability to sell the dialogue is intrinsically linked to the story; if he can't do so, then the story falls apart. But, in principle, if they aged up Hayden's look and inserted him as the ghost and as unmasked Anakin, I'd concede that it would make sense, at the very least. It still wouldn't make for the best choice, since Hayden wouldn't be able to pull off those more subtle lines, but it would at least be logical.

 

I don't think Hayden's acting in AotC and RotS was a bad as some people make it out to be. I think it works if it's up to the person to decide what form to take after death. Both versions make sense, but I think the newer version really helps to connect the two trilogies together, especially if you watch episode I-VI. It all comes full circle.

 

Commander Spock and Ambassador Spock finds your reasoning....illogical.

 

Lol. Ok I ain't gonna lie, that was pretty good.

 

Thanks.

Look, I can understand not liking the change. I disagree, but can understand it. But theMaestro's point really doesn't work in the context of Hollywood tricks that have been used for decades. Trek is just one prime example of it.

 

I'm not too familiar with Star Trek (have only vague memories of the first Abrams movie). But from the screenshot (and from quickly perusing wikipedia), the Spock thing seems to be due to an alternate universe, is that right? And it's acknowledged in-universe or has a special "moment" in the movie where its importance is acknowledged right? It's quite different from a ghost randomly appearing younger than his age of death, especially when all other Force ghosts do not do this. Anyway, when I say it's an "issue", I use that term loosely. I'm not saying it's a plot hole, since we can invent explanations for why it can work (for either ghost actually). It just....feels out of place given the context of the movies.

Good point though about how these kinds of Hollywood tricks have been used for decades. I'm sure then that you also disagree with QRB's point:

Given that Hollywood is full of these tricks, an injury-free older Anakin ghost isn't really a problem right? I'm sure you meant to include that point in your post too.

 

No "change". It's Anakin. There is a visual adjustment.

Old Anakin never had those robes on either. He was also missing arms, legs, etc etc. Rigidity about the ghosts seems to depend on wanting what you want as opposed to what the storyteller wants. Anakin clearly existed in the current form. The older version clearly didn't exist.

They aren't choosing how to interpret though. They want to make changes to want they want as opposed to interpret the story presented. Those are two different things.

The storyteller's story.

What we get in explanation is the demonstration of said technique.

Then using the SS ghost falls away completely because HC is Anakin in the movies. The SS ghost can't exist as demonstrated in the movies because the Anakin that he played does not go into the Force like Obi-Wan and Yoda.

In the context of the movies he doesn't work at all. Now if the Anakin he had played had vanished into the Force then that would be a whole other thing. That didn't happen. As demonstrated with Qui-Gon his body did not vanish into the Force but he did contact Yoda and also talked to Obi-Wan while never appearing in a Force Ghost form.

You just said "If the movies can work by themselves, then I'm good and don't need all that other stuff." but apparently that only applies to things you don't like as opposed to things you like. To get the SS ghost you have to invent explanations. In comparison it's a no-contest. To get the SS Anakin one has to invent a lot of explanations not in evidence. To get to the HC Anakin one can get there very easily.

Once again "If the movies can work by themselves, then I'm good and don't need all that other stuff."

That explanation really needs a lot of explaining. Obi-Wan and Yoda go into the Force with their bodies. Anakin does not. Even if Anakin went into the Force with his body then to get to the SS version you have the problem of why he's all healed. Set that aside you have the problem of why he is the completely wrong age and looks nothing at all like Anakin Skywalker. He's certainly not 45 and looks nothing like Anakin who we see when he is 19 through 22. As opposed to Anakin looking like himself.

When he progresses in age by decades as with SS it's not a problem but when the same thing happens in reverse it's a problem?

Anakin's Force Ghost should be someone that never existed.

Of course he would. I would have preferred that myself but that isn't what Lucas wanted to do.

 

It's a change in who plays Anakin. First it was Shaw. In the 2004/2011 versions, it's Hayden.

Old Anakin never had those robes on and neither did young Anakin! And young Anakin was also missing an arm. So neither forms exist in a complete state in that specific wardrobe. So your point about the old Anakin ghost not working also applies to the young Anakin ghost. I guess it seems to depend on "wanting what you want".

Yeah, and either ghost might not work depending on how people choose to interpret the story.

He has put out multiple versions.

So it's demonstrated to us that every ghost takes on the age they are when they die....until the 2004 version came along.

Well it's Sebastian Shaw when Luke meets him. And if you're saying that the Shaw ghost can't exist because he doesn't "go into the Force", then what's your reasoning for the Hayden ghost existing? I don't remember Hayden's body disappearing and going into the Force.

Very easily? I've not once read a simple explanation for how the Hayden ghost makes more sense than the Shaw ghost. It requires way more convolution than is necessary. We have to invent a ghost rule about how if a body doesn't disappear "into the Force", then it can only return as a ghost if it takes on....a younger form? Huh? How does that make any sense? Why wouldn't the ghost take on the AOTC Anakin? Or the Jake Lloyd Anakin since he was the most pure? Or....how about the Shaw Anakin since he represents character growth?

But when are any of the character ages or time intervals between the movies ever established in the movies themselves? The age 45 thing sounds like something you got from an outside source. Who is to say that he can't be in his 50s by the end of ROTJ? Shaw could pass off as a 50-something-year old.

How are the two at all comparable? Aging naturally over decades makes sense. Regressing in age as a ghost when no other ghost has done this seems a bit odd.

 

The truth is, everybody could keep arguing whether the change was right or wrong, and little headway would be made. It's all about the opinion of the individual viewer. The way I see it, you can either view the OT as a self contained story with the older Anakin ghost, or as part of the larger picture with the Christensen ghosts. Both arguments make sense, and everyone is free to view either version.

Personally, I don't think that Luke needs to have seen his young father before to recognize him in spirit form, he may recognize him simply by instinct, or the Force.

 

The older ghost works as part of the larger picture also. But you are correct, both can make sense as long as you don't take GL's explanation into account.

 

He hasn't regressed in age. That's how old Anakin's spirit is. Anakin didn't age spiritually at all for the twenty-three years he was trapped in that armor as Darth Vader. Those were lost years. That's why he looks the way he does when he's unmasked. As Joseph Campbell himself put it after viewing the trilogy for the first time:

JOSEPH CAMPBELL: I think it was in The Return of the Jedi when Skywalker unmasks his father. The father had been playing one of these machine roles, a state role. He was the uniform, you know? And the removal of that mask, there was an undeveloped man there, there was a kind of a worm. By being executive of a system, one is not developing one’s humanity. I think that George Lucas really, really did a beautiful thing there.

Anakin is picking up in ROTJ exactly where he left off in ROTS when he pledged his soul to Sidious in the Chancellor's office. He was the same age then as Luke is now. It's Luke's responsibility to pick up where his father left off at age twenty-three and forge the future his father was unable to. That's what makes the new version so much more significant and meaningful than the original. Now, Luke is looking upon his father's spirit as a reflection of his current self. He's approaching his father on equal terms. He has truly become his father.

GL's explanation is exactly what makes it all make so much sense, and what makes it so poignant and beautiful.

 

The only way the Hayden Ghost makes any sense, is if Lucas intended the Ghost of Anakin to have some great presence in the ST and Hayden would reprise him. Otherwise, while I see what he was going for, it's still a poor choice IMO.

 

No. Shaw's representation of Anakin as a Force spirit is of someone that never existed.

 

Having Hayden Christensen as Anakin's Force ghost in ROTJ isn't necessarily wrong. Not having Sebastian Shaw as Anakin's Force ghost in ROTJ (on a legal, easily accessible modern video format) is wrong.

 

What do you mean "no"? My statement is not up for debate. There was a change made in the portrayal of Anakin in ROTJ. Shaw was the actor who played him in the 1983 & 1997 versions, and Hayden is the actor that played him in the 2004 & 2011 versions. How well you think either ghost works is a different matter.

 

It's not "wrong." You just don't like it. An important distinction which unfortunately too few people understand in this day and age.

 

I would argue it is very much wrong, especially when the change was made to a movie Lucas didn't even direct, and the original director had no say in it due to passing away years earlier.

 

It is wrong. Because objectively, it's the attempted destruction of history. The suppression of the original cut of Return of the Jedi as seen by audiences in 1983.

The inherent flaw of the Special Editions is that they sought to replace the original films rather than stand alongside them. The latter goal is perfectly admirable; the former is a crime against posterity. Go far enough down that road and you get Stalin airbrushing "nonpersons" out of history.

 

George can make as many weird changes to the OT as possible, but to not release the original versions of the film alongside them is ridiculous. It's quite sad when Manos: The Hands of Fate, a low-budget horror film derided as one of the worst films ever, can get a restoration on Blu-Ray but Star Wars, one of the most successful, iconic, and important films ever, can only get a Laserdisc transfer to DVD.

 

Too many points have already been made. I'll just add the single one that matters to me most, which others have mentioned, which is the insult to us lifelong diehard fans for whom every scene is iconic and each of the three movies burned into the psyches of us baby boomers and x-geners. You just don't do that. Offer it as a new look, by all means. Then it's fun. But to erase the old is emotionally scarring. Does this sound overdramatic? Maybe, maybe not. These films were my childhood. You don't photoshop somebody's childhood. Nothing against Hayden at all. Just against the tampering of something that has become so beloved to so many of us. That's no small thing.

 

Overly dramatic and easily insulted OOT fanboys are not Lucas´s problem.

 

Hm, what about the ruppression of the rough cut of the movie done by Richard Marquand and Sean Barton before Lucas and his editors recut it several times and make further changes (by deleting or recuting some scenes and footage, by reshoots, etc.)? Is that also an "attempted destruction of history?