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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

What kind of tragedy is SW?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by solojones, Mar 26, 2005.

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  1. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    When people hear the words "tragedy" in connection with drama, they inevitably think Greek tragedy. There's no doubt that the PT is a tragedy, but of what type? The reason I post this in saga is because, while the OT is an excercise in romanticism, the effects of that I believe have an impact on what kind of story the PT is, because we hear the rest of the story, so to speak.

    The two main types of tragedy in drama are Greek and Christian. This is not to say that one is "pagan" and the other is "Godly". It's a form rather than any specific set of beliefs. Just to clarify.

    This is a really strange source, but this excerpt from John G. Stoessinger's Why Nations Go to War is a great summary of the differences:

    Greek tragedy, the tragedy of necessity, where the feeling aroused in the spectator is "What a pity it had to be this way" or of Christian tragedy, the tragedy of possibility, where the feeling aroused is "What a pity it was this way when it might have been otherwise."


    The Greek tragedies- Oedipus Rex, Orestia, etc.- operated under the notion that fate and the gods controlled everything and that man was but a pitiful creature in comparison. Individuals have flaws, but ultimately the gods are in control and there is nothing people can do to change that. (Postmodern tragedies like Death of a Salesman fall into this category, only with 'the system' or 'the Man' replacing the gods).

    The Christian tragedies- medieval mystery plays such as Everyman- operated under the notion that individuals are accountable for what they do. They may be battling the forces of evil, but ultimately, choices are what matter. (For what it's worth, Shakespeare's tragedies also fall under this category as they were written in a time where this mindset was clearly prevelant in society, regardless of whether one was religious or not).

    So, my question is, which is George Lucas getting at when he says, rightly, that the PT is a tragedy? And does the romaticism of the OT change what the PT is saying, what kind of tragedy it is?

    -sj loves kevin spacey



     
  2. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    Interesting idea.
    The Prequels make up a tragedy, the originals confirm the tragic results of the prequels, while they're not tragedies themselves.

    This new trilogy has a lot of elements of both Greek tragedy and Shakespearan.

    The Shakespearan influence is most noticable when looking at Anakin?s internal conflicts (Hamlet), Anakin?s need for more power (Macbeth) and the forbidden love between Padme and Anakin (Romeo and Juliet.) There is also a bit of betrayal between good friends (Julius Caesar.) In those ways it is keeping with the themes of Shakespearan tragedy.

    There is also a lot of influence of Sopohocles, which is seen throughout the saga. Mostly in the interactions between mothers, sons, brothers, sisters and fathers. The twisted family fighting and incest can be seen in all of the films, especially the relationship between Vader, Luke and Leia. In that way it is similar to Oedipus, Electra and Antigone.

    Lucas combines elements from so many different universal themes and influences. In many ways Star Wars is the rise and fall of Anakin and that in itself is a tragedy even if it has a seemingly happy ending.

    -Seldon
     
  3. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    The Shakespearan influence is most noticable when looking at Anakin?s internal conflicts (Hamlet)

    True, but there are also internal conflicts in plays such as Oedipus Rex. The difference, I think, is that Anakin's conflicts are over choices he has to make, not over these horrible things that have just fallen upon him. So yes, in that sense it's more "Shakespearean" (call it that if you like as he's the most famous of Christian tragedy writers... but everyone need not die in the end, really ;)).

    the forbidden love between Padme and Anakin (Romeo and Juliet.)There is also a bit of betrayal between good friends (Julius Caesar.)

    Yes, both very Shakespeare themes, even if he stole them from other people ;) Romeo and Juliet has really become the iconic star-crossed lover tragedy, even though the idea's been around for ages. Anakin and Padmé is an interesting comparison, though... what would you say their "two houses, both alike in dignity" would be? The Jedi and the Senate? And in the end, both have their downfall... hmmm... and yes, the Caesar parallel is a good one I hadn't thought of.

    There is also a lot of influence of Sopohocles, which is seen throughout the saga. Mostly in the interactions between mothers, sons, brothers, sisters and fathers.

    Yeah, that's where all that incest stuff comes from :p Sophocles was very good at using that family element. In Aristotle's The Poetics, he says the best kind of discovery is of something between family members. Well, ESB pretty much blew that one out of the water, huh? ;) Of course, discovery is also even better if accompanied by peripety (the reversal)... so if RotS is what I'm hoping and speculating it will be, Anakin's discovery and reversal would be highly approved in Aristotle's eyes.

    Lucas *is* great about taking from multiple sources. However, the question of ultimate responsibility is the most important in defining what kind of tragedy it is. So who is responsible- the gods, the Man, the individual? What kind of tragedy is it- of fate or of possibility lost?

    -sj loves kevin spacey
     
  4. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    May 17, 2003
    I used examples of Shakespeare because while he wasn't really original about any of his themes, it is his works which have survived time the best.

    Star Wars is about the decisions the individual makes. Anakin chooses his path to gain more power so that he may protect the ones he loves. It is all his decision. Same thing with Luke, the path is chosen by him, and him alone.

    -Seldon
     
  5. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    Yeah, see that's what I've always felt. I like the difference between "too bad this had to happen" and "too bad this happened when it could have been something better" that Stoessinger points out. Personally, I do think there are a lot of things in SW that are clearly about choice, about mistakes and rectifying them.

    But then it's puzzling because there's the Chosen One prophecy. To me, the way the Jedi talk about it, it seems almost as if Lucas is getting at the idea that this *will* happen, which doesn't seem in line with the ideas of the saga. But perhaps it's just that the Jedi believe it will, and learn otherwise? There's a cut line from AotC that appears in the Mace/Obi-Wan convo where Mace says if the prophecy is true, Anakin will bring balance, and Obi-Wan says "If he choses the right path." So is it just the Council that is overly faithful in this and is mistaken? Do they simply believe it's fate, only to learn with Anakin's downfall that this was a human tragedy?

    But there's a conflict. In ANH, Obi-Wan seems amused by Han saying the Force doesn't control his destiny. Obi-Wan also tells Luke he cannot escape his destiny in RotJ, I believe. So how does one reconcile those comments to the supposed idea that SW is a human tragedy, not one of inevitability?

    -sj loves kevin spacey
     
  6. severian28

    severian28 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 1, 2004
    It plays more like a Greek tragedy in its severity but is like Shakespeare in its look and its diction.
     
  7. Ogmios22188

    Ogmios22188 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 12, 2004
    I'd say there are elements of both. It seems that it's a cross between choice and destiny.
     
  8. Plurimus

    Plurimus Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 1999
    If you look at it as Anakin as the heart of the SW arc, then SW is a Christian tragedy. If you look at it as Luke as the heart of the SW arc, then it is predominantly a Christian redemption romance.

    GL from the earliest film makes choice the central motivation for everything. The blockade runner decides to escape, the rebels choose to fight, Luke choose to accompany Obi-Wan, Luke ultimately choose to toss aside his lightsaber and sacrifice himself instead of becoming a pawn of the emperor just as Obi-Wan sacrificed himself so that Luke could escape the Death Star and Vader. Similarly, in the OT GL asserts that the Neimoidians can be convinced to choose not to continue their blockade, Anakin chooses to leave Tatooine, and that Vader chooses to join the Emperor.

    This is the difference between the ancient view of destiny and inevitability and the modern?s view of free will and the role of choice marked by the European renaissance?s concept of humanism. The ancient tragedy is basically a test of character (as in the Kobayashi Maru scene in Star Trek), a way of demonstrating what makes a hero and what doesn?t. The modern?s point of view is toward the future, usually hopeful that humans will choose good over choosing not to do good.

    The mere expression of the protagonists of the SW saga as Jedi knights fundamentally premises the concept that people express themselves freely without fate or the gods imposing on them. And even when luck (or the Gods) do impose the hardships of a terrible universe, the good person will still opt to do good over evil. Jedi knights change the universe, they are not bound by determinism or a predetermined existence. Even when nearly exterminated, the choice of good falls into the hands of a rebellion which allows for the ultimate return of the champions of justice in the universe. All this in spite of the Emperor?s ability to foresee the future.
     
  9. solojones

    solojones Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 27, 2000
    Plurimus posted on 3/28/05 7:39am
    And even when luck (or the Gods) do impose the hardships of a terrible universe, the good person will still opt to do good over evil. Jedi knights change the universe, they are not bound by determinism or a predetermined existence.
    [hr][/blockquote]

    I agree with you, but to play Devil's advocate, how then does one reconcile lines such as:

    "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."

    "You cannot escape your destiny." (Luke having to face Vader)

    Said by Obi-Wan, a prime Jedi? What is he saying about the journey of the OT's hero?

    But then, of course, there's the flipside of things where the Emperor says:

    "It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now mine."

    Is this just a tactic by the Emperor that he's used to convince Vader himself that this is all destiny and that he has had no choice in it? Because if one thinks he has no choice, whether he does or not, that's going to make a difference.

    [hl=tan][color=darkred][b]-sj loves kevin spacey[/hl][/color][/b]
     
  10. Jedi_Master_Ryokono

    Jedi_Master_Ryokono Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Nov 10, 2003
    Actually, I'd agree with Seldon that SW projects a lot of Shakespearean elements, but I would say the fall of Anakin is even more similar to the parapetaea of Oedipus Rex, or even King Lear; in fact it's a lot like King Lear in that those he holds dear to him return to reclaim power and eventually bring about his redemption.

    "Oh, my Fool is hanged and I am left to die."

    :) x 1000000
     
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