Saga What lessons do you think Lucas intended watchers to draw from the Saga?

He has a few thousand people killed all at once in ROTS, without hesitation, by triggering the Order 66 chip.

In the EU, there's lots of other Imperial Atrocity incidents - some ordered by Palpatine personally.

 

I know but generally he killed people for a purpose. Tarkin killed Alderaan to "intimidate the Rebels"...but let's be honest he did it for kicks. Palpatine might have enjoyed senseless violence, but he initiated violence for specific purposes, like ending the Jedi threat. He would have had the intelligence to foresee that destroying an unarmed planet (a core world for god sakes!) would inspire more people to rise up against the Empire.

 

Always hold on to democracy and your rights. A dictator can't be trusted not to abuse their power.

 

That's pretty much how the Official Fact File (Issue 35) has it:

A Test Of Resolve
Imprisoned on the Death Star and subjected to a series of brutal tortures, Princess Leia was forced to muster all her inner strength. She emerged from the ordeal stronger than ever.

On the Death Star, Leia was subjected to numerous cruel tortures by Darth Vader. The callous Sith Lord spared no effort in getting his prisoner to break. Using a highly illegal interrogator droid, Vader plied her for the location of the Rebel Alliance's secret base. He used his own Force powers as well,but nothing was a match for her defences. Through an inherent strength of will, Leia resisted the mind probes and did not betray a single scrap of information.

When it was clear the probes had failed, Vader and Grand Moff Tarkin decided to cripple Leia's resolve by taking more drastic measures. They targeted her home planet of Alderaan for destruction to demonstrate their determination to extract the information they needed. Only then did Leia's resolve weaken, and she revealed a false location for the base, thinking that this bluff would buy her time to save her beloved planet. But Tarkin's cruelty knew no bounds. He ordered Alderaan to be destroyed in spite of the Princess's admission. Leia watched in horror as her beloved home planet was disintegrated before her eyes.

The Grand Moff ordered Leia's execution as well, but the devastated Princess took scant notice. Her home and those she knew and loved were gone, obliterated on the whim of a despotic, power-hungry Imperial. If ever Leia's resolve was questioned, Alderaan's destruction would serve as undisputed proof of her just fight against the tyranny of the Empire.

In the EU he was at least careful enough to conceal his own complicity in some similar cases:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destruction_of_Caamas

 

Regarding the issue of attachment, I think Luke ultimately fine tunes the old Jedi's perspective. Luke separates love and attachment at the end of ROTJ. He loves his father and he does all he can to save him, but ultimately he's prepared to let go of everything, including his own life if necessary, in order to turn away from the darkness. By making this ultimate statement against attachment, he makes an ultimate statement about his love for his father. This is quite a different take than the idea that emotions can be dangerous as they can lead to attachment and the dark side.

 

Personally I liked the distinction made in Clone Wars: No Prisoners between healthy attachment (of the kind most people with families and friends feel for their family members and friends, but not complete strangers) and unhealthy attachment (called "obsession") of the kind Anakin feels for Padme (and, probably, Romeo and Juliet felt for each other).

No need to "practice true unconditional love and selflessness" to live a normal life.

 

Which is what one of the characters in the book - a widowed Jedi - warns Anakin about, when he senses just how unhealthy Anakin's attachment is (even if he doesn't know who Anakin is attached to):

"Could you let someone go, if you loved them? Could you let them walk away? Could you live without them? How far would you go to stop them from leaving? What would you do to save them? Ask yourself, listen, and if any of your answers make you feel afraid … attachment may be fraught with misery, for you and those around you."​

 

Yes, but when Palpatine killed the Jedi, he laughed about it in front of Yoda. He taunted him with it. "At last, the Jedi are no more!". How is that not pure evil? Plus, he spent a few decades specifically planning to wipe the Jedi out. Yes, he had purpose. Doesn't mean he's not pure evil. The 9/11 hijackers had a purpose to get the U.S. off their lands, and spent a couple of years planning to wipe out a few thousand people. Are they not evil since they had a purpose?

 

K I don't know where 9/11 came into this I don't think you can find a quote of me saying Palpatine isn't evil. But yeah Palpatine killed for a purpose, usually to eliminate that which posed a threat to him. A planet like Alderaan wasn't even on his radar. Tarkin clearly killed billions just for the heck of it, that is worse. In essence Palpatine is like a killer with a motive, whom if you stay out of his way will stay out of yours, Tarkin is more akin to a psychotic serial killer who kills anyone in his path without any motive at all.

 

I was using it as an analogy.

 

Tarkin's mindset tends to vary depending on who's writing him.

Death Star
"I think it's time we demonstrated the full power of this station," Tarkin said. He looked back at his officer. "Set your course for Alderaan."
The man mumbled something and left, but Tarkin was already thinking ahead. If Princess Leia was a thorn in the Empire's side, then Alderaan was a forest of thorns.
Well, it was time to purge that forest. With fire.
Tagge started to say something but apparently thought better of it. Tarkin smiled almost benignly and said, "I understand your concerns, General. Rest assured I've spoken with Emperor Palpatine recently about demonstrating his battle station's range and strength. He has assured me that I have full rein to do so." He looked at Vader. "You disapprove, Lord Vader?"
"Not at all, Governor."

The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader
"I think it's time we demonstrated the full power of this station," Tarkin said. Turning to Motti, he commanded, "Set your course for Alderaan."
"With pleasure," Motti replied with an evil smile.
Realizing what Tarkin intended, Vader surveyed the man with new respect. The Dark Lord had done many horrendous and unpardonable things, but it seemed that Tarkin- at least in this situation- was even more diabolically inventive. However, Vader had one problem with Tarkin's scheme. "Alderaan is one of the foremost of the inner systems," Vader said. "The Emperor should be consulted."
"Do not think to challenge me!" Tarkin snapped. "You are not confronting Tagge or Motti now! The Emperor has placed me in charge of this affair with a free hand, and the decision is mine! And you will have your information that much sooner."
Vader had long suspected that Grand Moff Tarkin was insane, but it was not until Tarkin had addressed him just then, without a trace of fear, that Vader was left without a doubt. Vader said "If your plan serves our purpose, it will justify itself."
"The stability of the Empire is at stake," Tarkin said. "A planet is a small price to pay."

 

I can dig it.

 

I think he intended for the war to seem black and white on the surface, to draw us in easily.

 

Original visions change with new technologies.

 

The saga seems pretty karmic. The bad guys don't win without the galaxy re-balancing at the end of the next trilogy.
Kind of inspiring that good will always triumph if it lives on in even a few people's hearts.
Wonder where the ST will go with it...

 

Which is why I love the way that ROTS ends, and why I think it works best as the last episode of the Saga to date. The completion of a circle, rather than the end of a straight line.

As for the ST - we're just going to have to wait and see. I have a feeling that it's always going to be regarded as something separate, no matter what they do.

 

Fair enough. Personally I think it works well in both orders, it's designed that way. And technically, if you watch the saga more than one time you are watching the prequels both before and after the OT anyway

Revenge of the Sith does indeed feel very final, like most people I saw the OT first, and Ep3 was the end of an era. It also helps with the dramatic "space -opera" feel to have it end on the most dramatic note. ROTJ can be a little underwhelming in that regard, despite the moving emotional climax with Luke and Vader. Having said that, I think it answers ROTS effectively, the 1-6 order is satisfying to me. Anakin's re-emergance and death, while perhaps bittersweet (he is a slave his whole life until he gives up his life for Luke), feels more significant post-PT.

I just hope they don't bring back the Sith. Even if you don't count the prequels (and the prophecy), Vader's sacrifice and Luke accomplishing Knighthood will lose most of it's meaning if they do that.

 

I think Tarkin was pro union, pro Palpatine, pro order. His point of view always seemed pro empire / pro republic. Wars should end as soon as they start kinda guy.

 

I had all manner of possible answers swirling round my head for this thread.

Couldn't really settle on a response for a while, but now, having finally committed, I see that someone was already way ahead of me:

I think symbiosis and the interconnectedness of all beings, all thoughts, all actions, all events, all impulses -- this, indeed, may be the central lesson, the central idea...

It seems ironic that so many have had such a visceral reaction to TPM and its introduction of midi-chlorians in particular, when it, and they, beautifully emphasize the idea of heterogeneous unity and interdependence.

That we cannot go it alone. That we are in it together. No man is an island. And in a more esoteric sense, we are all answerable to something greater, something beyond ourselves. And further, in classic Lucasian style, it's the littlest of little guys -- critters in cells -- that have the biggest impact, the broadest reach, granting us fitful access to this richer domain of mode and meaning.

And here we arrive at a grand paradox: the Star Wars saga itself, while very much an idiosyncratic project, couldn't have been made without deep trust and bold collaboration. For all its individualistic flavour, it is very much a collective enterprise, a group effort. And this is further reflected in the archetypal fraternity that emerges in-narrative as a direct response to the Galactic Empire: the Rebel Alliance.

Observe how that name itself embodies a paradox. Can rebels align? Well, they can in Star Wars, which for all its darkness and self-abnegating irony, presents a relatively upbeat, hopeful vision for mankind.

As if fate or the Force itself were speaking to me this evening, I was flicking through a fabulous book I recently acquired, "The Moneyless Man" by Mark Boyle, and came right upon the following. I immediately felt I should include it in my response. I think this is the perfect note to end on:

"Have you ever liked anyone less for sharing something with you? Exactly. Sharing builds bonds, reduces fear and makes people feel better about the world they live in. Peace will only come when all the little interactions that occur around the world every day become more harmonious. The whole is made up of the detail."

 

I absolutely love the fact that TPM makes the awesome kickass Jedi magic powers dependent on sub-cellular nano-organisms mucking about in your cytoplasm. Not in the "go science!!!" aspect of it, but the humbling aspect of the idea.

And in reply to your quotation, here's one of my favourite moments from Spirit Warriors of Angharad by ophelia, in which Obi-Wan, literally at death's door, has the following exchange with his dead Master, who is trying to help him go back from "the other side".

“I know it seems to make no sense to expend more energy when you have so little left,” Qui-Gon acknowledged, “but truly, the more you give away, the more you get back in return. That’s the way the Force works.”

This was not an element of Jedi philosophy with which Obi-Wan was familiar, and he looked at Qui-Gon suspiciously. “What do you mean?” he asked.

“Well, how much rent do you charge your midi-chlorians?” Qui-Gon asked.

Obi-Wan just looked at him a moment, wondering if Qui-Gon had lost his mind, or if Obi-Wan, having hallucinated him, had lost his. “None,” he said finally.

“And how much of a power fee do they charge you for allowing you to access the Force?” Qui-Gon asked.

“None,” Obi-Wan said again. “But I really don’t see—“

“By giving away something for free, you both end up with more than you put into the deal, don’t you?” Qui-Gon asked.

Obi-Wan lay quiet for a few seconds, staring up at the strange stars in his imaginary sky. “I suppose so,” he said. ​

 

Before making a romantic move on anyone, always ask for a DNA test first.

 

I advise those fascinated by the concept of midichlorians to look into the real-world scientific theory of endosymbiosis. It's fascinating and indeed humbling from a real-world scientific perspective to consider that our mitochondria might have originated from a mutually beneficial arrangement formed between a single eukaryote and a single proteobacterium - two entirely separate organisms - with this symbiotic arrangement eventually evolving into a new stage of life.

The midichlorians are an inspired sci-fi/fantasy adaptation of this very real theory. However, they differ from mitochondria in some key aspects. For one thing, they're still discrete organisms within the cells of the organic characters in Star Wars, while mitochondria are merely organelles. If it could be said that the ancient eukaryotes pushed the ancestors of the mitochondria into more of a subordinate role, the organisms of the Star Wars galaxy retain a fully symbiotic relationship with the midichlorians.

The other way they differ is with their interconnectedness through the Force.

I'm actually reminded of a line from the clone Captain Rex in the TCW episode Plan of Dissent:

This is similar to the Force philosophy that stems from the midichlorians, but it speaks to a more brutal top-down approach. Whereas the clone troopers, who are unable to communicate with the Force, have their interconnectedness enforced on them as part of their purpose in life, the Jedi tap into existing interconnectedness through the midichlorians.

What the midichlorians represent, at least in the Jedi context, is unadulterated bottom-up symbiosis.