Lit What Makes a Jedi/Sith?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Jedi Merkurian, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

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    What is it that makes a Jedi a “fully-trained” Jedi Knight? What is it that makes a Sith Lord? What really differentiates a Sith from a Jedi who gives in to the dark side? Is it “kewl powarz” with the Force? Skill with the lightsaber? Length of training? Mental discipline? All of the above? How important is each factor relative to the others?

    IMO, the movies themselves seem kinda fuzzy on the matter. For example, despite having approximately half the duration of training, Tyranus could use Force lightning while Maul apparently could not. Luke Skywalker’s training was considered dangerously incomplete in ESB, despite displaying abilities that full-blown Council Masters didn’t have in the PT after a lifetime of learning. He then goes back to Dagobah for additional training, and Yoda essentially says “naw…ur good, bro!” Darth Vader spent a quarter century learning from Sidious…to be able to do exactly the same stuff he could do at the end of RotS without any training whatsoever.

    In a related vein, given the constant warnings in the OT about the dangers of the dark side and the ease with which you can succumb to temptation, what’s the difference between a Jedi who loses their **** (Vader in RotS) and a Dark Lord of the Sith (Vader in the OT)?

    Discuss.

    EDIT: I'd orginally posted this in Saga with a movies-only slant. However, I will now abuse my Modly powers [face_mischief] by moving this discussion to Lit.
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Dec 29, 2013
  2. Kurnous Ntol Jedi Youngling

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    Nov 29, 2012
    Based only on the movies, as you say, I can guess that a sith is no more tan a title. If a jedi goes nuts on his own he falls to the Dark Side, but is not a sith because there´s no sith master to name him. When Anakin suddenly turns, Darth Sidious inmediately changes his name and gives him the Darth title, therefore officially acknowledging him as a sith.
    I know you said non-EU stuff, but the scene in the original animated TCW where Asajj Ventress is introduced comes to mind regarding this matter. She introduces herself to Dooku as a sith but he laughs at her face and says she´s no sith. According to my theory, that´s because she hasn´t yet been accepted into the sith order.

    Now, about the Knight / Master / Lord question. My guess from the movies is that a jedi knight is someone who not only does have full control over the Force, but also understands his responsabilities and is prepared to act like a real jedi. Anakin was obviously powerful, but his arrogance and recklesness kept him from being promoted from padawan until the Clone Wars, and only because the jedi desperately needed more members. Which is what happens to Luke: despite being reckless, failing continous tests due to his impatience and going to fight Vader, Yoda accepts him as a full jedi because he has no other choice.
    Regarding the sith, I guess it depends on the skills of the apprentice. Maul was really skilled with the lightsaber, but we barely saw his control over the Force, yet he was regarded by Sidious as Lord.
  3. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    From the movies alone what do we know of the Jedi, and the Sith? Yoda doesn't accept Luke as a jedi in ROTJ. He says he still has to confront Vader (not kill, I will highlight, but confront). Luke understands what it is to be a Jedi when he refuses to use his power to sate his own emotions (at the time anger, hatred) and even to protect his own life (throwing down his lightsabre, as Obi-Wan says to Anakin in AOTC "this weapon is your life").

    Anakin also tells us in ROTS that the Jedi think of others, whereas the Sith think inwardly, of themsleves. Anakin falls to the darkside in order to save what he wants to save, what he can't live without. "Attachment, the shadow of greed that is" - he is thinking of his own desire to save Padmé for him, he betrays everything she has fought for and believes in to save her for him; she has become as a possession of his.

    So becoming a Jedi is about discipline, about - if you like - losing ones own self within the Force. Being a Sith is about concentrating on one's own desires, about looking inwardly and exhalting the self. We see in ROTS that first flush of power that Anakin feels when deciding to do what he wants with all that power, but afterwards..... he becomes a slave to it. I feel that Vader is an anomaly within the Sith - given what we see with Sidious and Dooku.
  4. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

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    Thank you!!! Every time I hear someone spout off that Luke was either half-trained, or trained only to be an assassin of some sort, I remind people of this, as well as Yoda’s admonishment that “only a fully-trained Jedi Knight…will conquer Vader and his Emperor.”

    Perhaps then, what distinguishes a Jedi Padawan/Knight/Master or a Sith initiate from [Mace Windu]a Sith…Lord?[/Mace Windu] :p is not their “feats of Force,” but their level of self-mastery.

    In ESB, Luke could do pretty much anything a PT-era Council Master could do (and a few things they couldn’t) but lacked patience, detachment, and faith in his abilities. Oh, he had arrogance about his abilities, thinking he could face down Vader and save his friends. But if he had faith in his abilities, he would’ve gone into the cave unarmed, and could’ve levitated his ship. Thus, he was considered dangerously untrained. Ironically, Vader did complete Luke’s training, by literally beating some sense into him.

    Similarly, in RotS, I’d say that Vader was literally drunk with power, but had no self-control. I think it’s in the RotS novelization where Sidious says something to the effect of “the Jedi use understanding to gain power, and the Sith use power to gain understanding.”
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  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Luke didn't exactly conquer them though- Vader turned on the Emperor and killed him.

    Even at the end of RoTJ, a case can be made that Luke had far less training than other Jedi Knights had.
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  6. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

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    Of the three beings who started out that confrontation, who survived? [face_whistling]

    *EDIT: Funny aside, can you imagine the sheer panic about the second Death Star at this scene: “Holy ****!!! Is that somebody carrying Darth ****ing Vader?!?!? We’re screwed!!!”
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Dec 20, 2012
  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    True- but is that what Yoda & Ben meant by "conquer"?
  8. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    Luke definitely did not have the power of a Council Master at that time.
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  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    What do we see Luke doing in ESB, that council masters can't? And vice versa?
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  10. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    This is only relevant for those that feel that Jedi training is about the power one wields - and that was, after all, a part of Anakin's downfall. We hear it often from the Sith.. "I am/have become more powerful tha any Jedi..."

    The clue as to what it means to be a Jedi is in Luke's own recognition. He throws down his weapon and states that he won't turn to the Darkside; "I am a Jedi, like my Father before me". He understood what it was to be a Jedi, and it wasn't about his ability to fight with a lightsabre.
  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Not just that- there's other bits to it- knowledge about the Force.

    If it takes Old Republic Jedi 20 years to complete their training- what do they learn that Luke doesn't?
  12. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

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    Ha ha... a good question. Not a lot, if Anakin is anything to go by...
  13. Narutakikun Force Ghost

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    I object to the definition of "Non-EU" given here, in that I think it's pretty safe to say that Clone Wars is not EU.
  14. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

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    Telepathy, the ability to see the future, and, apparently, the ability to find a planet without the use of any sort of navigational device.
  15. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

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    Let’s look at this from another angle: as I said in the OP, Vader spent roughly a quarter-century learning the Sith Arts from Sidious to be able to accomplish exactly the same “feats of Force” he was able to do prior to Sidious teaching him anything. Unless you’re saying that Sidious taught Vader how to Force choke and taught him nothing else ever again. :p
  16. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

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    Yes they can. Watch the Jedi Council scenes in TPM, for example. Just because we don't see anyone except Anakin having visions, doesn't mean they can't.
    Also keep in mind that their ability to use the Force has diminished with the rise of the Sidious.
    Luke, is, of course, naturally gifted, but it's still not enough to overcome deficiency in his training when facing a Sith Lord. He actually got lucky Vader didn't want to kill him. Imagine if it was Darth Maul :p

    Dagobah? I thought it was R2...
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  17. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

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    The only Council Master who seems to be able to see the future is Yoda. And R2 asks about navigating to Dagobah, & Luke says "I got this."
  18. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    I'd say it's all of the above. Except the "cool powers". It's more about how they are used.

    Even if Maul couldn't use Force lightning (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence), we have to take into account that Dooku was a Jedi during all his life. All that background + 10 years of Sith training, I don't see it as an inconsistency.

    I'm not sure what abilites does he have that Council Masters didn't.

    Indeed. I never completely understood that either. My guess is that he felt Luke had become mature enough (self discipline) since he last saw him.

    How do we know that? I never saw Anakin being able to kill (or affect) someone with the Force through a viewscreen, for example.

    What do you mean?

    P.S: Thanks for a non-EU thread. We should see this more often.
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  19. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

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    Assume for a second that you’re right. I don’t think you are, but for sake of discussion… The Council Masters have the capacity to see the future, but can’t because of the Force slipping out of balance. That makes Luke even more powerful than the Council Masters, because he could see the future when the Force is even more screwed up.

    As far as Luke vs. Maul, I get the feeling that Luke would’ve benefitted from having the same choreographer as Maul ;) :p

    You’re actually making my point for me; it’s not at all inconsistent. I’d say that being a Sith Lord or Jedi Knight isn’t as much about length of training or what tricks can be performed with the Force, but more about emotional maturity and self-discipline.
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Dec 21, 2012
  20. Poor Greedo Jedi Grand Master

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    You’re actually making my point for me; it’s not at all inconsistent. I’d say that being a Sith Lord or Jedi Knight isn’t as much about length of training or what tricks can be performed with the Force, but more about emotional maturity and self-discipline.[/quote]

    couldn't agree more. I believe it has much more to do with maturity and emotional control. I also believe it is done on a case by case basis, no real "set" time. it also seems that padawans were sometimes rushed into things due to the ever increasing instability of the galaxy.
  21. janstett Force Ghost

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    This was a huge missed opportunity in the prequels. Not only did we learn nothing about the training of a Jedi in the PT, we learned nothing about the training of a Sith other than slaughtering children and separatist leaders.

    Think back to ESB and what we learn from Yoda's training.

    Who wouldn't have loved to see the dark side equivalent of that -- and take care of such exposition we never get as the history of the Sith, who they are, what their philosophy is, how they differ from the Jedi, etc.

    Huge missed opportunity.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Who they are, what their philosophy is, how they differ from the Jedi. LOL
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 22, 2012
  23. janstett Force Ghost

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    So I guess you have no curiosity for good storytelling (which is apparent by your blind zombie-like defense of garbage).

    LOL.

    Just like "The Prophecy". What is it exactly? Who wrote it? When? What exactly does it say?

    Who are the Sith? Why do they hate the Jedi? How are they different from the Jedi? We're told they are "almost alike in every way" but then not told how they are different. What exactly is their philosophy? Not going to find it in-movie... Nope, they're just bad guys for some reason and hate the Jedi for some reason. Good enough! Hell Marvel Comics do a better job of establishing motivation for the villains and those are frigging comic books!

    Do you think a person who is new to the saga will not be confused by and disinterested in this poor storytelling?

    Thanks to poor story telling, the audience is left without knowledge of things they should know about and it's left to novels and comic books to clean up the mess.

    You know Arwyn your posts really have devolved and now you're pretty much just a blind homer...
    Last edited by janstett, Dec 22, 2012
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    You seem to be missing the point.

    It says what the films say that it says.

    Because the Jedi stole their girlfriends?

    You were supposed to get that from watching the films. If you can't see any difference, that's your problem.

    Why would bad people hate those less bad than themselves? Does not make sense!

    Were the original viewers of the OT, which also failed to spoon-feed the audience, confused and disinterested?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 22, 2012
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  25. Alexrd Force Ghost

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    False. You need to watch the PT again.

    Assuming that is required for good storytelling (which it isn't).

    Such argumentative capabilities only reduce your credibility.
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