What makes ESB so GREAT?

AOTC is at the bottom of my list as well.

And the comment about atmosphere is dead on.

 

ESB is a great film, a stunning sequel, and I think second only to ANH in overall goodness.

It has always seemed to me though that when I was a kid it was everyone's least favourite. Which makes me wonder if it succeeded in its aim as well as the other two.

Kudos to Lucas for taking the story down a darker path, and being willing to have an unhappy ending. And inventing Yoda.

And it's probably the best executed of the Star Wars films in terms of the score and editing.

 

I love the film. I really dislike the way it's used by some to attack the other SW films.

I think the rest of the films, not including ANH, would not exist if not for Empire. I am not just saying literally. The whole PT hinges on one line spoken in TESB, arguable the best plot twist ever on film. None of us would be here 20+ years later discussing Star Wars had this movie not been released the way it was 23 years ago.

The ESB made the phenomenon that is SW today. What we all like about the other films - the duels, the Force and its philosphy, Jedi - what they are and why we find them so intriguing, the characters - with their personality traits and flaws -, the romance, the politics (if you are into that), the costumes, the beautiful scenic design, those incredible, almost scene-stealing background music - all came from this movie. Not ANH. It picked up ANH's hints and ran with it.

ANH started this, had some of this, of course, but Empire MADE Star Wars bigger than ANH, gave us the ability to have EU that made sense, that had more than just 2-dimesional characters (good/bad guys), etc. ESB fleshed out the people, went further with the ideas that were introduced in ANH, allowed us to understand the scope of what is at stake. ESB showed us Cloud City, Dagobah - we got a forest for like 3 min. - if that - in ANH. Beautiful places in this war - torn galaxy.

The Imperial March, the Asteroid Chase. Yoda's theme, Han and Leia's love theme. ANH had the great Leia theme and of course the main title - SW music came alive with new themes from this movie. SW won the Oscar for Score, and deserved it. But SW music was firmly established with TESB. It should have won an Oscar as well.

Han would just be a smuggler, Leia - a damsel in distress, Luke - the boy who starts to grow up, Chewie - the pet, C-3PO - a robot. He would not have his annoying qualities that make him great.

C-3PO is a strong example of what I am talking about. No one has any opinions on 3PO except R2 in the first film. Argue all you want they just met him, but the traits of 3PO that we all cling to, the traits the EU desparetly try to harness, come from ESB.
Chewie too- I said this in the other thread about Empire being overrated. Watch Chewie in all his scenes in this movie, and see how "real" he seems. It is just incredible how much character is there. Why I love Chewie as a character, why I do not love Jar-Jar. The subtlty Chewie has, etc....

My point is all the deep character development started here, in TESB, and otherwise Star Wars would be a simple good vs. evil story, instead of the "modern myth" people claim it is. All the story telling came alive in this one.

Everything that made Star Wars go beyond just a great movie came from Empire.

Do I need to explain more? If I cam being cryptic, I will expalin more. So of course all other SW films HAVE to be compared to it. There is no other way. The bar is set so high with this film, how do you not long for another like it?

All for now,

Madine out

 

I'm sorry GenMadine, I just can't agree with you. ESB enriched the whole SW world no doubt, but it's not the Alpha and Omega that some make it out to be.

The ESB made the phenomenon that is SW today.

No. Lightsabres, "Use the Force", Luke, Leia, Han, Vader, Obi-Wan...none of these were introduced in ESB. Those are the strongest links to SW in popular culture. ESB contributed "I am your father", a fine line and twist in itself but not everything. These were not 'hints' in ANH, these were the founding ideas that were developed.

Empire did not make SW bigger than it was. I can understand it being the darling of the hardcore SW fans, but in the general public it's ANH that is Star Wars.

Do I need to explain more? If I cam being cryptic, I will expalin more. So of course all other SW films HAVE to be compared to it. There is no other way. The bar is set so high with this film, how do you not long for another like it?

I can totally understand that. The one problem is that you now have the personal opinion of what 'the bar' is...and for those people that don't have ESB as their favourite film in the SW series, does this now mean that they are fooling themselves to the true quality?

The definition of ESB as the height of SW films is a common one, no doubts, and I love the film to bits. But it is not the only one, and too often the view of the differing is derided and stomped on in favour of ESB.

That's what I have an issue with.

I'm sorry for derailing this topic, because it's meant to be about the stuff that makes ESB great. But I just know that anyone trying the same with, say, ROTJ, can expect several scornful replies without any thought of someone genuinely having a different opinion.

 

The single most popular piece of music in this whole Star Wars saga originally was heard in TESB.

The Imperial March is the piece of music that people associate with Star Wars. It is just that well known.

Your points and opinions are valid, and I see where you are coming from, but what makes TESB so great, and superior to all the other films, is that it makes SW MORE than just a great popcorn movie.

Madine out

 

The single most popular piece of music in this whole Star Wars saga originally was heard in TESB.

What, no love for Jefferson Starship's performance in the Holiday Special?


My basic problem with ESB is that some of the things it did, like reduce the 'simplicity' of the good-evil conflict, is that I feel a lot of ANH's charm came from the fact THAT IT WAS a simple story, with two-dimensional characters and a pure, even hokey attitude. ESB killed that in its attempts to add depth and darkness to a movie that didn't need such things.

I can get standard movie character development anywhere. I prefer SW to have its own special flavor. I get far less of that in in ESB than in ANH.



Rick McCallum loves you!

 

Do not doubt it - it would be impossible.

Remember, the PT is based on the one line Darth Vader says to Luke in TESB. Yes, Luke's father was seduced by the Dark Side, but her was originally killed by Vader. With his uttering of that line, the "killing" is symbolic, full of a subtext that fuels the entire PT.

Madine out

 

When someone says a sequel is like the ESB of the serious like Brian Singer said X2 was the ESB of the X men film serious he is doing then you know it is that good if it mentioned in that way. I mean just its title is being mentioned here. That film was the film of the year it is the film of the SW saga and I have heard it is good because GL did not direct it. Maybe that is true but I think Hoth and Dagobah and well hell just the whole thing took me away.

 

and I have heard it is good because GL did not direct it.

Oh, let's not open up THAT can of worms now, shall we? I utterly disagree.

Anyway, the opening SW music is the most famous tune, even ahead of the Imperial March.

Doooo, doooo...dododo DOOOOO doooo....*cough*

Anyway, I just disagree. And I'm still derailing this thread *hears the stomp of approaching Mods*