Saga What makes Palpatine's Lightsaber Skills incredible? Is it more than Darth Plagueis's training?

I came to wondering - and apologies for F.I.T.S. or its in the wrong forum - didn't wish to post too many in the Literature anyhow - but with Palpatine's dueling skills with a Lightsaber one way or another in the Canon and EU we see him able to easily make quick blade work of many opponents - and the fact putting aside 'who won' in the Mace Windu and Master Yoda duels - he still put up a fierce nasty and aggressive fight - and the fact how also in the Dark Empire EU comics where he taunted Luke who was immersed in the Dark Side at that time - where '"Does your dark side knowledge tell you how many other so-called "Jedi Masters" failed to vanquish me? Does your knowledge tell you that I have already beaten you?" ... and Palpatine in a fresh clone body was able to best Luke ... and ofc his duels in the Clone Wars plus also how he took on Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tinn ... and the fact the ROTS novel was much more graphic and violent and nastier ...

But I just could not help but wonder then IF Darth Plagueis - well EU-wise IF he wasn't so keen on Lightsaber dueling - and to the point of considering them to be rather obsolete and preferred indirect subtle maneuvering and influence or the fact Arcane Force Powers ... and whilst he no doubt trained Palpatine Sith Powers to a high standard and no doubt with Force Powers - but what about Lightsaber dueling? Given Darth Plagueis was not so keen on Lightsaber dueling at times and yet Palpatine was able to be quite a fine and aggressive Sith duelist and Swordsmaster ... or is it possible sometimes the student develops Powers on their own and beyond that of what the Master or Teacher teaches in a sense? Given Darth Plagueis himself was stated to have developed his own Sith Powers on his own and beyond what Darth Tenebrous expected ... and hence he resented the Rule of Two whereas Palpatine claimed otherwise that Darth Plagueis 'taught Palpatine everything he knew about the Force ... even the nature of the Dark Side ...' - Force Powers yes I can agree and see to that but what about Lightsaber dueling? Just out of curiosity ...









But then again given if he took Count Dooku as his Sith Apprentice - wasn't the problem with Count Dooku (well next to potential treachery and how Count Dooku did in AOTC proclaim he would destroy the Sith but only if then Obi-Wan Kenobi joined and worked together with him...) that Count Dooku mainly had Form II Makashi and that wasn't fully sufficient in the end against Anakin's brute raw strength and Form V Shien/Djem Sho ... and surely Palpatine no doubt had a full working knowledge of all 7 Forms of Lightsaber dueling - plus he surely would have invested more resources and time to train Darth Maul in Lightsaber dueling eh?

 

Maybe that's why he took Dooku as an apprentice - one of the greatest swordmasters in the history of the Jedi Order - to boost his lightsaber duelling skills.

 

His connection to the Force.

Despite what the EU says, I don't think Palpatine would care about the Jedi's seven lightsaber forms, he'd be more of a freestylist.

To be honest, I don't see him spending that much time training, especially in his later years, like during the time of the PT. I see him relying on the dark side of the Force to guide him, to control his actions, even. That corkscrew? I think that's a bit of freewheeling, cutting loose, letting the Force hurl him at his opponents. The way he cuts right through those Jedi Masters? That kind of quickness might come from a total lack of hesitancy, the kind of reflexes that can only be achieved if one shuts off their mind, even if only for a moment.

 

Interesting - but surely then wouldn't that mean Palpatine probably DID NOT NEED Darth Plagueis's help and guidance then both in the EU and Canon? I mean he might as well have just told Darth Plagueis 'man forget you!' and just chose his own path or where Darth Plagueis when he took in Palpatine he remarked to Palpatine how '"You have the Force, apprentice, and the talent to lead. More, you have the bloodlust of a serial killer, though we need to hold that in reserve unless violence serves some extraordinary purpose. We are not butchers, Sidious, like some past Sith Lords. We are architects of the future." or where he applied and lectured on the use of Force Lightning where 'Force lightning requires strength of a sort only a Sith can command because we accept consequence and reject compassion. To do so requires a thirst for power that is not easily satisfied. The Force tries to resist the callings of ravenous spirits; therefore it must be broken and made a beast of burden. It must be made to answer one's will. But the Force cannot be treated deferentially. In order to summon and use lightning properly, you will someday have to be on the receiving end of its power, as a means of taking the energy inside yourself." - and where Palpatine at one point was so angry yet he shut-up and paused when Darth Plagueis remarked 'careful boy ... you are not the only one in this room with the Power to kill...' and would you say rather it was Darth Plagueis helping him harness his Dark Side Powers in a sense then? Given the fact how Darth Plagueis explained how unlike feral Ancient Sith whom were butchers and killers and thugs from Korriban with mob-mentality mindedness - Darth Plagueis explained it was important to harness and tame the raw energies and Power of the Dark Side of the Force...

Given I still wonder at times IF Palpatine could have still achieved comparable Power and such if he learned his own Dark Side Force Powers and without help from Darth Plagueis; given the fact how in the Darth Plagueis novel we have quotes on how Darth Plagueis lectured Palpatine about the importance of achieving Power and influence in the long run given these quotes from the novel and Wookiepedia:

"Consider the mind-set of an anarchist who plans to sacrifice himself for a cause. For the weeks, months, possibly years leading up to the day he straps a thermal detonator to his chest and executes his task, he has lived in and been strengthened by the secret he carries, knowing the toll his act will take. So it has been for the Sith, residing in a secret, sacred place of knowledge for one thousand years, and knowing the toll our acts will take. This is power, Sidious. Where the Jedi, by contrast, are like beings who, as they move among the healthy, keep secret the fact that they are dying of a terminal illness."

"For now, Sidious, know that you are the blade we will drive through the heart of the Senate, the Republic, and the Jedi Order, and I, your guide to reshaping the galaxy. Together we are the newborn stars that complete the Sith constellation."

"To say that the Force works in mysterious ways is to admit one's ignorance, for any mystery can be solved through the application of knowledge and unrelenting effort. As we had our way with the Senate, and as we will soon have our way with the Republic and the Jedi, we will have our way with the Force."

"The climate begins to shift, Darth Sidious. The body politic begins to show signs of contagion. The reemergence of anger, hatred, and fear signal a loss of faith in the Force. The light is waning, pushed into retreat by dark matter, and the universe begins to seem inimical rather than comforting."

"Dark times don't simply emerge, Sidious. Enlightened beings, guiding intelligences manipulate events to bring about a storm that will deliver power into the hands of an elite group willing to make the hard choices the Republic fears to make. Beings may elect their leaders, but the Force has elected us."


Oh and - with your comment on the 7 forms of Lightsaber dueling - what I meant was Palpatine - whilst he might not 'give a Force' about them or using which specific forms - I meant surely he would have a good working knowledge of them ... I mean just like Count Dooku himself where in the AOTC novel he dismissed the 'ridiculous acrobatics of Form IV Ataru' yet when Master Yoda was able to apply it and to fend off Count Dooku's attacks ... so surely the same with Count Dooku he might not 'give a Force' about other Lightsaber forms other than Form II Makashi but surely then he would have no trouble applying elements of it - and being able to have a good working knowledge of various forms if necessary ... I mean in the EU where Sora Bulq tried applying the 'frenzied attacks of Vaapad' against Count Dooku yet Count Dooku was able to fend off the attack and even claimed 'you separate the Light from the Dark because you have been taught to fear Master Bulq!' And given there was Form VI Ni-man which was an all-rounder form so hence Palpatine would at the very least have a good working knowledge on how they all work and such ...

 

It's because he's the Main Bad Guy and has to survive dueling against four Jedi masters, and then Yoda, because he was already in Episodes V and VI.

 

Not to be a contrarian here but I've been interested in this subject ever since it was announced Palpatine would use a saber in the 3SA forums.

Quotes thrown out as "500 times faster than anyone else" amongst many others.

and truth be told he is not that awesome with a lightsaber...against either opponent. Part of this is Lucas insistence for McDiarmid to be the one wielding the blade, but facts are:

1. he's slow against Windu (in fact this duel is the slowest in the PT and similar to OT in terms of speed)
2. he lost his saber to Yoda (although we didn't see it on screen official sources say that's what happened)

note: I don't include TCW here as, well, cgi characters aren't on my list as canon.

 

Yet, neither is that a bad thing. It's very true to life: not everyone is comfortable with weapons. Peter is alongside Ian in this.

 

I agree CA

for me it made him feel more of a real character, because lets face it: the films have "wait til you see the next person to weild a lightsaber, he's even better than the LAST character using one" vibe, and that is clichéd and boring to me.

 

Maybe... but Palpatine was never suggested to be uncomfortable around a lightsaber. He never used one in the OT because he never thought he'd need one: anyone who didn't have a lightsaber he'd fry the absolute bejeebus out of (or just choke) and anyone who DID... well he had a massive scary cyborg bodyguard to deal with those. In the PT era he seemed pretty excited when the Jedi turned up to arrest him and he had a chance to cut loose and go nuts instead of playing the elderly statesman role.

Whatever the actor actually feels about it shouldn't in the slightest affect the way the character is read/played. (Roger Moore hates guns and as James Bond he would flinch and/or wince every time he fired... doesn't mean James Bond isn't a state-sponsored assassin as well as a spy.)

 

I think Palps/Sidiou's lightsaber skills stem directly from the darkside and his experience. He's obviously old, possibly even older than we know considering his former master apparently knew the key to immortality. He would have endless years to perfect his skills, especially since it's not like he was doing much Sith work besides plotting. Also, like another poster said he did take on Dooku as an apprentice who although lacked the ferocity that Maul had, he possessed the skill and style of true lightsaber duelling. A master can indeed learn from his apprentice.

But I do think a part of his skill is his tamed power of the darkside. We see Vader has it in the Mustafar duel, just he lacks the knowledge and control to direct it properly. This is something Sidious can and does do. His hatred, his anger, his darkness.... they are his greatest strengths.

 

Raised to make his lightsaber a part of him, where every move he makes is a flow of his own body, taking a natural reflex so he doesn't have to think of his next strike, it just comes to him so he can concentrate on the force.

 

Actually now that you mention it ... I wonder though IF Palpatine honestly was in Anakin's position OR if Palaptine endured horrific injuries comparable to Anakin and Darth Maul ... COULD HE also survive doing what Anakin and Darth Maul did - well basically using the Raw Anger and Dark Rage and Dark Side of the Force to keep him going and alive OR even do what Darth Sion or Darth Nihilus or what Lord Simus had done ...

 

Darth Maul was an indication of how skilled the Sith Master really is, so I don't know how someone could doubt Sidious' skills as a duelist and warrior, he trained one of the most skilled Sith in the history.

But Dooku's lightsaber style is ; Makashi and it's completely different than Sidious' Juyo style.

 

Palpatine is the darkside equivalent of Yoda. He is very strong with the darkside and he did win the fight.

 

I just rewatched ROTS yesterday and noticed something. TCW establishes that Palps has two sabers. This actually makes sense because during the fight with Mace we can clearly see his saber falling out the window. If he didn't have two sabers then where the hell did he get another one to fight Yoda with? I find it highly doubtful that Palps has a closet full of spare sabers. This also strengthens the theory that Palps wasn't going all out in the fight with Mace and was merely stalling, waiting for Anakin. Thoughts on this?