Discussion What needs to happen to make you say, "The ST was as good as the OT"?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by boomx2sjk, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. boomx2sjk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 1
    We all know that to the majority of ppl, for various reasons, the PT did not live up to the "hype" and was not as good as the OT. My question is, what do you want/need to see from the ST to make it on par with the originals?

    Something general? Good plot development, believable characters, no cheesy love dialogue, etc.

    Or stuff more specific?
    KevinM1 likes this.
  2. Jedi_Lover Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2004
    star 5
    I want characters I care about. Good character development. Good dialog, good action and a Luke/Mara Jade romance. ;)
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  3. oierem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
  4. The Bops Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2012
    star 1
    Two things:

    1. It needs to be released.

    2. I need to see it.

    That is all...
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  5. The Hellhammer Grand Judicator of the New Film Territories

    Manager
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    Nov 4, 2012
    star 5
  6. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I want it to be better than OT. Here, I said it ;)
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  7. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    I think this can be a fantastic series of films if it sticks to the basic premise of the OT. I happen to enjoy the PT but I think there are ways to make this more in the spirit of the OT than the PT:

    -Don't have a romance as a central aspect, have it as a side story.
    -Develop characters in a way that keeps some mystery involved but let's you know why they are significant (I felt like TPM could have done so much more with Darth Maul to let us know just how amazing he is).
    -Avoid "video game" scenes. By this I mean don't use scenes like the droid factory on Geonosis where you're on a conveyor belt dodging, ducking, jumping, etc. Make the action more intense and not so "linear."
    -Make mention of some characters before their introduction that makes us go, "Oh man, this guy/girl must be something else." (Think Ord Mantell reference to the "bounty hunter," or Jabba (pre-SE))
    -Help us to identify not only with characters but ships. The Millennium Falcon, X-wings, Slave I are much more personal than the Jedi starfighters (by necessity in some ways), the Naboo starships, or Droid fighters.

    In the end I'm extremely optimistic about these films. I think they will surpass the PT and can be on a par with the OT (or hopefully, as -NaTaLie- says, surpass the OT!).
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  8. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    By better I mean better dialogue and acting (even in the OT, it was uneven and can definitely be improved). I also felt that while Luke had a great character arc, Han and Leia's character development fared somewhat worse. And, while I love Vader/Luke scenes in ROTJ, I think it's not as epic a finale as it could have been.
  9. stellarmagic01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    Very good dialog and acting, and a real sense of family and friendship like we got in the OT. I could see a couple ways they could exceed the OT (Which would require a truly awesome script and director), but I don't see that happening.
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  10. Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    Here's how I can see it kicking butt:

    1) It's been years since the Empire have been defeated and it's become a little bit like WW2 is for us. People talk about it but the younger generations don't seem to show the respect to those who fought. Some younger people with force sensitivity are using their skills to steal, others to win at sports or other athletic pursuits.

    2) A force as terrifying as the Empire comes from far far away with a villain that's both powerful, scary, and complex. The presence of this new enemy brings our heroes together in some way and they're reluctant but willing.

    2) More heroes in the group with shades of grey to them like Han Solo. Perhaps one idealistic person that's more pure but the rest all shades of grey like most people in society. Each character has a unique skill or strength of some kind that the others seem to lack. We don't have to go back to the original characters but that basic formula is essentially timeless.

    3) An invasion or an occupation that forces our heroes into action in some way.

    4) Good dialogue and group dynamics. Characters that perhaps don't get along at first and make fun of each other a lot but who come together over the course of the journey and became great friends with unique skills. Comedy is fine but have it rooted in character, like Toy Story is and the OT were.

    5) Solid acting and good chemistry between the cast including any potential love story. The love story should have sparks and feel believable rather than just tacked on.

    6) More practical FX, makeup, and costumes, combined with CG.

    7) John Wiliams score.

    8) A top tier DOP like Tattersal or Deakins.

    9) A terrific mixture of saber battles, space battles, adventures with creatures, escapes, close calls, and subterfuge.

    10) LAST AND POSSIBLY MOST IMPORTANT.

    A larger mythological storyline or question of some kind that runs throughout the next 3. In the OT it was Luke's quest to face Vader because he believed he killed his father. A twist of that magnitude isn't necessary but I don't think they should be afraid of one either if it's logical and makes sense. There should be something driving this new trilogy forward that isn't revolved in VII. Maybe it's family-related. Maybe it's friendship-related. Maybe it's something totally different but something should be hinted at or setup in this one that doesn't fully get resolved until IX and it should be the heart of this trilogy.

    I honestly think we're in good hands with Michael Arndt. Think about all the amazing escapes, and aventure scenes in Toy Story 3. He made escaping from a bathroom thrilling. He made a teddy bear that was nice one minute and terrifying the next. He then showed why the teddybear was the way he was. He made a funny love story between Ken and Barbie and then turned it on its head with Ken rebelling against Barbie. Scene after scene after scene in Toy Story 3 was loaded with conflict, tension, humor, and character development. He's a great writer and his presence all but guarantees one of the best screenplays since Kasdan's.
    Last edited by Ender_and_Bean, Nov 27, 2012
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  11. Ron Fett Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 1
    A more real feel. The prequels had nothing but massive CGI armies and crazy jumping and kicking.
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  12. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I just need to be entertained the vast majority of the time, like I am when I watch the OT. Yeah, that's all.

    Entertainment was sparse in the PT.
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  13. boomx2sjk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 1
    Toy Story 3 actually got me choked up at the end. It's a movie about toys....

    If he can do that using Buzz and Woody, he can do that using characters and plotlines in a GFFA.
    fishtailsam likes this.
  14. stellarmagic01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    The key is this:

    Family, Character, Family, Struggle, Family, Good vs. Evil, and Family... I can not undervalue the importance of making the story about a family... I mean think of the most successful series of stories around.

    Star Wars IV, V, and VI are about the heroes Luke, Leia, Han, and Chewie (plus two droids) and their journey in both becoming a family together but dealing with their heritage (Vader).

    The Harry Potter series features a trio that is extremely close... Harry and Hermione Granger are both incorporated as members of the Weasley family long before they actually become brother-in-law and sister-in-law with them.

    Star Wars VII is going to be about the offspring of the heroes of VI and their struggle to get out from under both the shadow of their parents but also the spectre of their grandfather (Vader). If they adhere to the EU there's also a huge pair of specters hanging over the film in the form of Mara Jade Skywalker and Jacen Solo, even before we bring up the mass of galactic events that have happened in the intervening years.

    Those are extremely potent ingredients. I mean think of the weave of relationships at work, beyond the simple parental relationships. There's the Master - Apprentice chain: Luke trains Mara, who trains Jaina, who trains Ben... There's the smashed twin bond with Jacen, and everything else you can think of.
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  15. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I guess I'm in minority but I want less Skywalkers and more regular folks (i.e. non force sensitive , they can still kick ass as bounty hunters or soldiers). It's easier to like someone like Han or Luke in ANH than a bunch of supernatural beings. I expect the Skywalker family to be featured quite prominently, of course, but I want to see a larger galaxy too.
  16. Palpatine2016 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 4
    As long as it's an enjoyable time, and feels like a proper Star Wars sequel, I'll be happy...

    I liked the prequels though.
  17. Echo-07 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 4
    Well, IMO, going into this expecting it to be "as good as the OT" or even better would be setting yourself up for disappointment.

    Nothing will ever compare to the phenomenon of the OT. The times and the conditions in which you first saw the OT are much different now. People weren't spoiled back in the 70's & 80's with a perpetual inundation of media. Nowadays there is too much media. Likely, when the movie comes out you'll know almost everything about it. It's much more anticipated now. Expectations are super-high and the the critics have muliplied like never before because everyone is a critic and everyone has a forum. So IMO it will be impossible to match the OT and this was sthe case for the PT too.

    All I'm hoping for is an entertainig trilogy that advances the story and stays aways from things that I don't like, like time travel or resurrecting dead characters or putting "celebrities" in just for name recognition -- I'm looking at you Justin Beiber.
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  18. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Well-constructed action scenes, some eye-rolling one liners and relationship dynamics, a basic good vs. evil let's-blow-this-thing-up plot, interesting visuals, some lame alien costumes, at least two burp jokes, some cutesy aliens and droids, Nien Nunb throwing down some wicked co-piloting skills.
  19. KevinM1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 2
    This is a huge one for me. The action scenes in the PT were very linear. Armies just sort of walk towards one another (Naboo, Geonosis, Kashyyyk), sequences are overly busy for no real point (Geonosis, Grievous' ship, the Obi-Wan/Grievous chase), and they all tend to mimic RotJ's editing. I'd like to see something more like ESB, where the desperation of Han, Leia, and Chewie in the asteroid field is juxtaposed by Luke's training. Sometimes you need an emotional and visual counterpoint in order to regroup mentally as a viewer. If things are always epic, nothing is.

    Yup, classic world building. Prime example of how to do it wrong: Sifo-Dyas. Who is he? Why was he never mentioned before Kamino? Why was he never mentioned after Kamino? Did he actually order a clone army? Was it merely Sidious co-opting his name? Note that no one ever claims that there is no Sifo-Dyas, so someone with that name must exist, but we never get an inkling of who they are or what their motivations must be.

    Prime example of how to do it right: Jabba (like you said). Pre-SE we hear about him for two movies before seeing him. Every time he's mentioned, it's serious. Han respects/fears him, and Han hardly respects or fears anyone. Then when we meet him, he's grotesque in every meaning of the word, and a clever twist on what most people think of when they think gangster. But, the main point is that Jabba exists in the universe prior to us meeting him. That lends credibility to the universe itself.
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  20. Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 1
    The rebooted Star Trek was a lot of fun (most of the time). I know die-hard Trekies will disagree. Heck, I sat in front of most of them on opening night as they muttered under their breath about the presence of Beastie Boys music in a Star Trek film. I honestly love the original Trek and TNG and Deep Space Nine but I'm open-minded too. I knew Trek needed to be re-invented and because Star Wars was my first love... Abrams re-imagining of Trek with some Star Wars influences was still quite enjoyable for me. I enjoyed the Kirk/Spock/Bones dynamic and thought the introduction of Kirk in the bar fight and then driving his motorcycle down to the ship yard was terrific. That shot of him looking out was almost a "two moons moment." I liked how there old school rubber mask aliens at the bar in Trek. I loved the wide shots of all the people all running to their posts. I liked the sense of scale in Trek. I enjoyed the scene in the liquid tube and how that was directed (reminded of vintage Spielberg). I enjoyed the little creature that was climbing on top of things and Scotty telling him to "Get down from there" even though some felt it lame. I didn't mind Nero as a villain. I liked the huge creature chasing Kirk scene on that Hoth-like planet.

    It didn't all work. I didn't love the "red planet killing liquid" and some of the other decisions that were made but the Star Wars influence was undeniable and I'd be lying if I said it didn't remind me of where Lucas went wrong with the Prequels when I was watching it for the first time. I'm not afraid to say it. The new Star Trek gives me hope that a revamped Star Wars may be possible. I think with the writers they've got (better than those on Trek) and hopefully a good director... this could end up being even better than the revamped Trek which was both a commercial AND critical success. Hard core trek fans like to complain about Trek but critics and fans new to the series ate it up. It has 95% on Rotten Tomatoes with an average critical rating of 8.1 out of 10. Same goes for IMDB:

    http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_trek_11/
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0796366/

    That's an incredible mixture of critical and commercial success. The new Trek has pretty solid replay value. It's a little long due to the need to get Nimoy involved again but it does flow pretty well given its length. I hope we get something of that quality level or better for episode VII.
    Last edited by Ender_and_Bean, Nov 27, 2012
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  21. LunarMoth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2012
    star 4
    Hi all,

    First post of mine in here!!!

    What needs to happen for me to say that the ST was as good as the OT would be for the story to maintain its integrity and the look and feel of the new films to be in line with the OT. Thats not to say that the special effects should be downgraded to 70's-80's standards, but rather that I enjoy the way they look instead of being disctracted by how they look.

    (Whether or not I think these things will happen probably belong in another thread.....)
    Last edited by LunarMoth, Nov 27, 2012
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  22. Pro Scoundrel Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 4
    I doubt it's possible to like the ST as much as the OT, simply because the OT came first. It's the standard that all other Star Wars is judged by. I'm just hoping for a trilogy that's a worthy successor.
    awesomejedi, eht13 and Echo-07 like this.
  23. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Something tells me a new generation of kids will love these movies no matter what (they did like the PT). I think it's the older fans (some) who have trouble leaving their cynicism at the door.
    Last edited by -NaTaLie-, Nov 27, 2012
  24. Echo-07 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 4
    I'm, sadly, an "older fan" now that grew up with the OT and I still like the PT.
  25. stellarmagic01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    I just sort of accept the PT for what it is... The most flawed being TPM and the least flawed of which being RoTS. Are they as good as the Original Trilogy, no... RoTS comes closest but it's still not quite there. Were they unbearable? No.