Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by boomx2sjk, Nov 27, 2012.
Well, something we'll just disagree on then.
By no means would I go so far as to say that ESB had no plot, however it was pretty paper thin.
What would make me say the ST is as good as the OT?.....
If it's as good as the OT
For anyone interested, last night I gave an overlong rant about what, in my opinion, doesn't succeed about ESB's plot on the Saga boards:
Oh, I'm not hating on it by any means - like I said, I LOVE that movie. I'm just pointing out that the same gripes people have about the worst of the PT can also be said of the best of the OT.
Also, as far as plot goes, your answer is pretty dang nebulous. Even if I were to accept that as a plot (which I don't, because there's no conflict,) it is still the weakest of all the Star Wars plots. My point, however, is that a film doesn't have to be inscrutable to be downright entertaining. I love ALL SIX Star Wars movies, nitpicks and gripes be damned.
The "ESB has no plot" argument is an interesting one.
I think the absence or thinness of a plot is tied to the fact that this was a movie with a known sequel. I mean LOTR has one LONG plot tied to three movies but one could argue that each individual movie really has no plot. I view ESB as the thread keeping the OT together. Without ESB I think ROTJ is lost. I'm okay with a thinner plot or absence of a plot in this case because I actually want to take the ride through a trilogy. This is why aside from ANH I don't think any of the movies stand alone well. It's all about the entire saga unfolding before our eyes.
It won't live up to the OT. I’m not saying it’s going to be a bad movie. For instance, the PT wasn’t a bad movie, in my opinion. I’m saying it just can’t live up to the hype. It’s simple.
People already know what they want.
There are people who want Luke married, and people who don’t, people who want Gungan/Ewok type characters, somehow despises such a though. Some who want EU characters like Ben and Jania, some who want new ones. Some who want the Sith to return and some that don’t.
And then there’s the EU, If the Thrawn Trilogy gets wiped away, a lot of people will be mad. If the Legacy comics disappear people will be angry. If there’s a lot of EU in the movie people won’t like it. If there’s no EU things in it, people won’t appreciate it.
And then there’s also the fact that there are already 2 generations of star wars fans, the PT era and the OT era, both wanting different things. If there’s a PT ship people will start ranting. If there is only OT ships people will start raging. If there is a mention of midiclorians people will begin to grumble, if there’s no mention on midiclorians people will be disappointed.
As you see, it’s impossible to please everyone, cause we all know what’s going to happen 12 years after their release, RLM……….
Don’t deny it; there will be some sort of RLM after the new trilogy is released……
I agree with most of your post and think you are accurate, but I decided to pull out one point that I'm seeing a lot on these threads. If there's a lot of EU in it why should EU haters hate it? I mean it wouldn't diminish the movie as long as it didn't require a lot of knowledge of the EU. I don't think the EU is perfect, but I do think there are characters that could be utilized effectively (Jacen, Jaine, Mara Jade, Ben, etc).
It cannot happen. Apart from the quality of the movies, they, along with any other audio/visual experiences of that era, serve as an anchor to people who experienced the OT. This anchor effectively transports these people back in time to the "good old days" every time they watch these movies.
In short, the new movies cannot recreate nostalgia.
You make a good point, but at the same time I think a lot of confusion with ESB's rather thin plot (or, at least, my own) stems from the fact that all of the other films usually manage to intertwine a larger-scale plot story with the more personal stories, something which ESB really skimps on.
In TPM, for example, I love how the large plot of the situation with Naboo runs parallel to Anakin being discovered. Or AOTC where the beginning of the Clone Wars runs concurrent to Anakin dealing with his love for Padmé and his mother. Then ROTS has both the fall of the Republic (large-scale) and the fall of Anakin (more personal scale). Nor is this confined to the PT, since during ANH, Luke joins the Rebellion and begins his journey as a Jedi while the Rebellion wins its first major victory against the Empire. ROTJ ends with the Luke redeeming his father and the Rebellion triumphing over the Empire.
ESB just seems to have little focus. This is especially noticeable in the end since it just kind of stops instead of concluding. For the other films, there's a natural stopping point (even AOTC, which is also the middle portion of its respective trilogy) and ESB seems to be lacking this.
I've always felt, personally, that the plot of ESB would have worked better if Leia and Han's romance had been scrapped and instead, the two of them had infiltrated the Empire and retrieved the plans for the second Death Star. It would have played out largely the same, but I think a more organic endpoint would have been to stop when Leia returned with the plans to the Rebellion. Then ROTJ could have proceeded much the same.
Otherwise, I don't know if it's just me, but it seems as though ESB doesn't really do anything to advance the Empire vs. Rebellion conflict. It's a great character-building film for Luke (which is why I love it) but I do feel it is missing a bit along the way.
You bring up LOTR:TTT as an example, Julius Vernon, but I feel that even that film has more of a central plot than ESB does -- focused on the survival of the people of Rohan.
I agree with what you said about use Jania, Ben, Mara, and other EU characters.
I don't think a little EU would diminish the feeling, it's just that before the first original 3 star wars movies, there was no EU or book to diminish your views on the movies, and now we have comics, novels, and even TV shows! It's kind of hard to please older generation now days. I believe it always was. Because of nostalgia.
I completely agree, the only nostalgia you can create is in younger fans. But, as you said, you can't recreate such a thing for older fans.
Fair enough, I guess. But I happen to like the PT as well nit-pickers be damned. As for TESB you may say it has no plot or conflict but I think it's the purest form -- just straight up good vs evil. Some might consider it thin but Darth Vader attempting to capture the major rebel leaders is a plot and there was a fight and struggle not to be caught. I think movies get so wrapped up in complex plots sometimes they kill themselves.
Please use Jedi and lightsaber action sparingly.
The one thing I love about the OT, especially ANH in this regard, is that it wasn't action oriented. You got to see Obi-Wan use passive techniques such as jedi mind tricks, voice imitation (Krayt dragon call to scare the Jawas away), & creating sound to distract (scene where Obi-Wan deactivated tractor beam on Death Star).
There's more to Jedi than swordplay and there's more to Star Wars than Jedi.
Movies rarely, if ever, have no plot. "[Movie X] had no plot" just means [Critic X] had no argument.
You have to be born after 1990 because any one born before 1990 will hold the original trilogy as the best because of the nostalgia they have about seeing the original when they were young
I was born in '91, and I still think that for the most part the OT is stronger than the PT.
On the other hand I was born in '79 and in many ways I prefer the PT, although I don't really see the need to divide the two trilogies into separate entities. Sure I have plenty of nostalgia for the OT, but by now I think I have just as much nostalgia for the buildup to Episode I and the time period that followed.
And at least you can admit that your perception of the OT is influenced by nostalgia. There's nothing wrong with that at all as far as I'm concerned, but some people will deny it to their last breath anyway.
I don't have the capacity to thoroughly hate a franchise that I watch for some of its misgivings. I still think the PT is a pretty fun ride for the most part.
An amazing story, that will keep me enthralled for the next decade. New exciting characters and the return of old favorites (ie. Force ghost padme).... Only joking!!
Well...as far as this old fanboy is concerned, there absolutely MUST be some kind of continuity.
I'm one of those people who's "gripes" about the OT and PT are minor. I liked ALL the movies. There are things I like, and dislike, about ALL the movies as well. I despise Binks, I thought Lloyd's acting was sub-par, but I still enjoyed TPM. Same goes for TESB...even as a kid, I thought the idea of a giant space slug was stupid, but I still love that movie.
It's all Star Wars, after all.
So, the same goes for these new movies. No matter what they do, it will still be Star Wars, and as long as continuity is maintained, I will be happy. And by "continuity", I mean the new movies should fit into the established Star Wars universe without disturbing too much of what's already been established. And if the new movies take place 40 plus years after RotJ, as is most likely, I see no problem with that.
Btw, the space slug never *bothered* me per se - it was the space pterodactyls living IN the slug. LOL
I agree A New Hope is my favorite in the series I was born in 1987 so I'm not as old as my father who say them in theaters.
To me, it's all predicated on the villains and their plots. They have to make me feel like the good guys are really threatened and finding a way for them to defeat the bad guys isn't going to be easy. To me, it's always about the villains.
Thank you , and i agree with you 110%.
Why do people dismiss nostalgia as a reason to like the OT? We use nostalgia every day of our lives for different reasons. It simple means you liked something and it means a lot to you. I think that's a very valid reason to like the OT. It's true, you can't create nostalgia from something you've never seen before. But seeing familiar images and characters in a new setting can still trigger those fond memories enough to draw you in. Whether it holds onto you is a matter of proper story telling. The best parts of the PT were the ones where I saw something from the OT, like Luke's garage on Tatooine. The dinner table in the Lar's home, complete with patterned ceiling. Those moments almost felt like "Star Wars" to me. Unfortunately for me, the rest of the PT ruined the moment. But that's another thread.