Discussion What needs to happen to make you say, "The ST was as good as the OT"?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by boomx2sjk, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. Panakas_Dawg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2004
    star 5
    I always viewed ESB as the film that opens doors. Not really answering secrets, but uncovering them. In a way.
    - Luke opens the past by hooking up with a long-forgotten reclusive Jedi Master. It opens up that world we didn't have in ANH. "This is how Jedi were."
    - Vader is Luke's father. At the time, it was speculated he wasn't. Either way, there's something Vader knows about Luke's father besides he's dead. Another door opens.
    - Ben may have lied to Luke. Ben's motives are now called into question.
    - Han and Leia take the whole film, but they reveal their feelings to each other.

    To me, *these* are the things that make it a great SW film. We get new characters (Boba, Yoda, Lando) and learn the story is deeper than we once thought. This is the reason I liked the PT so much, too.
    -NaTaLie- and Count Yubnub like this.
  2. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Oh, I wholly see your point. The Luke-Vader personal struggle is one of my favorite (if not my single most favorite) relationships in all of Star Wars and ESB plays a central role in that. I just, personally, dislike that the central conflict is diminished so greatly given that the other Star Wars films did a good job of integrating the large-scale conflict with the more interpersonal small-scale ones.

    For me, it's problematic because there's much less of a sense of investment in anyone but Luke as a result of this. Had Han and Leia's sections of the film focused on advancing the central conflict more, I think I would have liked their portions to a far greater extent. As it is, Han and Leia's screen time consists primarily of a love story (which is utterly extraneous and doesn't advance much at all) in addition to setting them up as bait for Luke. I wouldn't touch a thing about Luke's story, personally, but I feel that ESB would have been improved (in my opinion) if instead of focusing on the love story, Han and Leia would have taken action to advance the Rebellion against the Empire (perhaps stealing a set of "secret" plans) and then been captured. For me, it would have given me more of an investment in their side of things while also advancing the central conflict.

    I guess what I'm saying is that, in this specific regard, I'd prefer that the new films not follow ESB. There should be a balance between the central and personal conflict, along with integration of these story lines. For me at least, that's how I prefer my Star Wars.
  3. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Well I liked that ESB was not a carbon copy of ANH. It did things differently and was a complete downer compared to the upbeat optimism of the original.
  4. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Hey PiettsHat, I have a question for you. I know you've always been very critical of the Han/Leia love story, and I generally agree with you, but I wonder if you will feel any differently if it turns out to be crucial to the ST in terms of setting up their offspring as the main character, assuming we're dealing with the next generation and not some time further in the future. As much as I'd like to keep the father/son thing going, I have issues with the idea that Luke got married and had a child between the trilogies if they're going to keep the storytelling style consistent, and bringing Han and Leia's child(ren) into the forefront of the story would make a lot of sense as well as giving their love story a greater sense of purpose in the grander scheme.
  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    In theory, I don't have too much of a problem with the Han and Leia dynamic. My frustration with it is do in part to the fact that it doesn't really matter to the story. Should their offspring play a central role in the ST, that might alleviate it a bit, but not wholly. Part of the problem, for me, is that I feel that their romance was a big missed opportunity to give Leia in particular some good character development. I feel like Lucas and co. could have used the romance as vehicle to address Leia's hatred of the Empire and how Han might help her work through that. Maybe by having a pivotal choice for Leia at the end of the movie where we see that Han's really helped her to overcome blind hatred and be able to make difficult decisions. I don't think it would be too out of character for Leia to hold some real rage towards the Empire, especially after Alderaan.

    There's also the fact that, although I like both Han and Leia, I don't particularly like the way Han treats Leia, especially in ESB. I don't find his childishness towards her to be charming in any sense. But, most especially, I despise that he never respects her personal space or wishes. A lot of my issues with the romance, in fact, would be alleviated if the scene of Leia falling in his lap and the scene of their first kiss were just subtly altered. As it stands, Han ignoring her protests just rubs me the wrong way.

    The romance takes some cues from Gone With the Wind which, given that it's supposed to be a happy, healthy relationship, just seems really off to me, considering how abusive Rhett and Scarlett were to each other.
    Count Yubnub likes this.
  6. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Good points. Anakin was in some ways just as disrespectful of Padme, but he never invaded her personal space and he mostly knew when to back off. My sense of why Han acted the way he did with Leia is because he knew she really loved him and was trying to get her to come to terms with it, but I'm not sure that entirely comes through on the screen... at least until he's about to be frozen that is. Then I'd say it's pretty well spelled out.

    Oh and the ball was dropped on Alderaan in ANH. I know it was trying not to take itself too seriously, but Leia's feelings about that really should have been dealt with at some point. That was the crucial time where Lucas opted not to develop her character. As it stands, her entire arc is that she softens up a little. But maybe that will be rectified in the ST.
    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Dec 6, 2012
  7. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Also have to keep in mind that Anakin turns into a primary antagonist and Han doesn't. But even before that, interesting that Anakin is always called out for his creepy stare when Han is supposedly badass for continuing to touch Leia after she asks him to let go of her. And here we're talking a 19/20 year character vs. a man in his 30s.
    Count Yubnub likes this.
  8. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    I think the difference is that for all intents and purposes, Padme was just getting to know Anakin in AOTC, whereas in TESB, Han and Leia had been in close proximity for years, so a lot of their relationship developed off-screen and we come in just as it's reaching the point where they have to start admitting their feelings for each other.
    Last edited by Mystery_Roach, Dec 6, 2012
  9. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    True, although with off-screen development required in order to justify Leia as not really meaning no when she says no, I think at the very least we have a topic that deserves some discussion/dissection. But, like I said, among Star Wars fan circles it's Anakin's stare that receives the vast majority of criticism in terms of portraying creepy relationship nudging behavior.
  10. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    Han has charisma. Anakin's just plain creepy.
  11. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Agreed, but that's where the famous exchange comes in. When Leia says "I love you", she's basically admitting to Han that he was right about her feelings the entire time, which he acknowledges by saying "I know." It's kind of incredible that this scene was ever written any other way, because it's the only thing in the movie that justifies his previous behavior.
    Han Shot First likes this.
  12. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    That's your interpretation as a viewer, based mainly on the actors' portrayals of those characters, but there's no guarantee that Padme or Leia would necessarily agree with your point of view.
  13. Felicia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2012
    star 2
    If there is a love story then it would need to be fully developed. I can see things from padmes perspective. She had spent most of her life serving her people and took no.time for herself. Fortuneatly for Anakin he wasin the right place at the right time. Padme tells Anakin at the arena their lives may be over anyway. Padme appears to be taking a last chance at love and taking a chance on Anakin. One of the telling lines of this love story is.when Obi wan says "Is Anakin the father"? She is so ashamed she can not answer and she looks away. Obi wans reply? "Im so sorry." The warning signs were there. She ignored them. I do hope the next love story is better than the last.
    Last edited by Felicia, Dec 6, 2012
  14. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    She knew he was creepy all along.
  15. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    I guess I just really enjoy that their whole sequence in the movie is one big chase but I definitely understand and respect your points. In the first draft of ESB Han and Leia were attempting to get to one of Han's old associates to try and persuade him to help the Rebellion with more ships. Who knows, maybe a subplot like that might have helped to alleviate some of your concerns.

    There's a line in the script just after Alderaan is destroyed that really helps to show Leia's disgust with the Empire. It's something like, "And you call yourselves human." But where I really think they blew it with Leia was in ROTJ (as much as I love the movie) where she just accepts Luke telling her that Darth Vader was her father. She really should have gotten mad at Luke and denied it. She should have brought up the fact that Vader killed her father and blew up her home planet. She and Luke should have left on bad terms and then at the end when she tells Han that she can feel that Luke made it to safety we as the audience would know that she's begun to accept it. Something like that could have helped add a layer of drama to it.
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  16. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Han as the charisma of a lounge lizard (my hands are dirty too, baby!)
    Cantina Bassist likes this.
  17. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    Tony Clifton had me at "hello".
  18. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    That's an interesting idea, and I agree with you in theory, but I'm not sure that would be enough of a resolution and there's no other place where one could fit in that movie. And besides, for all the issues she should probably have with Vader, I've never really understood why people keep insisting that he blew up Alderaan. Sure he was complicit, but it was Tarkin who gave the order. Vader makes it clear that he isn't really even in favor of the Death Star, and I get the sense that he's only even there because Palpatine ordered him there.
  19. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    I was speaking more in terms of how Leia would have viewed the event. I can't see her making much of difference between Vader, who stood by and watched her planet be destroyed, and Tarkin, who ordered it.
  20. Lord Voldemoo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 6, 2012
    I don't envision any scenario in which I say "the ST is as good as the OT." This isn't based in logic for me. This is based on the fact that I grew up in the late 70's and 80's. The OT was what I grew up with, it helped (sorry) define part of my childhood. Now, in my late 30's, there is nothing that can touch that. Ever. I don't care how good it is. It's a product of the time and the experience was shaped by who I was when I saw the OT. I'm different now. Still a giant geek, and I hope that I absolutely love the new films! But it will never, ever be equal to the OT to me.

    I say this not to be a purist or a traditionalist, etc. I say it because being realistic helps me to set appropriate internal expectations around the new sequels. Not that they will be bad, or even objectively less than the OT. But because I have changed, it's unlikely that the sequels will ever quite hit that level of magic from my childhood. The PT taught me that if I accept that, i enjoy the experience now a great deal more.
  21. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    What needs to happen to make you say, "The ST was as good as the OT"?


    A miracle. Seriously, I'm very happy and excited and everything. However, I'm also not 4,7, and 10. Far from it. So I'm not even sure they have to be "as good" anyway. It's a different time.
  22. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Glad you grew up. Thanks.
  23. Buddha Fett Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 1999
    star 4
    Agree. My response to the OP was going to be - I'd have to somehow revert to being a starry-eyed six year old with nothing base the experience on. :)
  24. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    much trouble its embarrasingly troubling, some are even starting to resent the youth & how hollywood caters to them.
  25. bluemilkcheesypuffs77 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2