Discussion What needs to happen to make you say, "The ST was as good as the OT"?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Episode VII and Beyond (Archive)' started by boomx2sjk, Nov 27, 2012.

  1. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    And then see it again every few years. :) It's one of those things that improves with repeated viewing because you discover new layers and connections each time you watch the films. Anyway, admittedly, it isn't the same type of "trilogy" as the other trilogies mentioned, as the stories are only conceptually linked--it's not one story with the same protagonist, they movies aren't narrative sequels to each other.


    Here's another really good one, one that had a distinct influence on "Star Wars":

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai_Trilogy
    -NaTaLie- likes this.
  2. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Wow. Well color me wrong about trilogies I guess.
    Count Yubnub likes this.
  3. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    I can't really think of any others. I know that the "Girl" trilogy (The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, The Girl who Played with Fire, The Girl who Kicked the Hornet's Nest) is really well-reviewed, but I haven't seen it yet (neither the original Swedish nor the recent English-language remake).

    How about the "Evil Dead" trilogy? :)
  4. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    The Millenium trilogy (Girl with the Dragon Tattoo) is decent, but I feel that the American version of the first one is the best so far.
    The Evil Dead trilogy is awesome, especially Dead by Dawn which is the best horror comedy of the 80's besides An American Werewolf in London. The first one is still pretty damn terrifying by today's standards, and Army of Darkness is a slapstick marvel. I don't know if it's a "true trilogy" since Dead by Dawn can be seen as a remake of the original.
    Count Yubnub likes this.
  5. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    Does three seasons of Arrested Development qualify?
  6. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Well not anymore since a new season is about to appear on Netflix [face_dancing]
  7. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    I've made a huge mistake.
  8. Doug625 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 1
    It just has to have some of the same feel as the OT. Nothing will or can ever be as epic as the OT but just to have the same feel would be an amazing achievement. Less CGI than the PT would help, use CGI only when necessary and dialogue for an audience older than 8 years old would help too.
    FinleySlade likes this.
  9. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    See, I have rather the opposing view. I think that the OT films function much better as standalone films than the PT films do (and this is both a positive and a negative). As a positive, you don't have to be as familiar with previous films to understand and appreciate the events. But as a negative, there is less cohesion. One marker of this in the OT is its rather schizophrenic tone. ESB is by far the darkest of three films overall and it is sandwiched between the very light, almost fairy-tale ANH and ROTJ (which induces mood whiplash with the speed with which it switches from the genial Ewok scenes to the oppressive scenes aboard the Death Star).

    Regardless, though, there's not much carryover from ANH. Really the only things that are carried over are:

    Luke, Han, and Leia meeting
    Obi-Wan being dead
    And the Emperor/Vader wanted to track down Luke and the Rebels

    The destruction of the Death Star (the main plot of ANH) has no effect on events in ESB -- the Empire is not in any way crippled by it and the only reference to it is in regards to Luke as "the young rebel who destroyed the Death Star." Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru's deaths are never brought up again, nor is the destruction of Alderaan, nor is Tarkin's death, etc.

    ESB, then, is rather standalone, although it does have strong ties to ROTJ in terms of the Luke-Vader-Emperor dynamic. But there's much less carryover in comparison to the prequels where, in TPM, Anakin leaving his mother is a major plot point, as is Anakin's discovery, Palpatine's ascendency to the Chancellorship, Jar Jar becoming an important Gungan (as he'll eventually be a representative and propose Palpatine's powers), Qui-Gon's death, the humiliation of the Trade Federation, etc. There's a lot of integral plot threads there and almost every point of importance from TPM is brought into play in subsequent films. Not so with ANH and ESB. The PT is also, in my opinion, more consistent in its changing tone as it noticeably and gradually gets darker throughout the trilogy, while the OT is more indecisive in this regard.

    I will note, too, that whenever I watch the OT, I usually watch them all together, and this was one of the first points I noticed. It's not bad, but I don't see the OT as functioning as a three-act play all that well. Especially because the problems our heroes face come across as temporary. As an example:

    --Obi-Wan dies -- immediately brought back as a ghost
    --Luke gets his hand cut off -- immediately gets a new one
    --Han is frozen in carbonite -- start up the next movie and he's almost immediately freed

    When permanent losses do happen (such as the deaths of Owen/Beru or the destruction of Alderaan), they're oddly never brought up again.

    Thus, for me, the PT functions much better as a complete 3-act play. When you take the example of Anakin's mother -- she's mentioned in all three movies and her death has a profound effect on Anakin. Even Qui-Gon is not forgotten -- as he is heard in voiceover in AOTC (and mentioned by Dooku) and also discussed in ROTS.

    That's just the way I look at it though.

    ESB is a phenomenal movie, but, in my opinion, there are tweaks that could have made it significantly better. That's why I'd prefer that the new films not copy ESB wholesale (though, to be fair, this applies to any of the Star Wars films in general as none of them are perfect).
  10. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Whoa! Hold on now. Evil Dead II is in no way a remake. It spends the first few minutes recapping the first movie (albeit re-shot with a few differences, mainly involving the reduction of characters), but then picks up at the exact point where the first one leaves off and from then on is a total continuation of the story.
  11. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Well when you put it that way it kinda makes sense.
  12. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Good story. Clear villain(s). Main characters who feel human and whom the audience can connect with.

    Don't be afraid to set the Star Wars world on its ear, like Empire did (both generally and with the revelation).

    Please no teddy bears or 6 foot rabbits. Try not to recycle ideas like the Death Star. And please use practical sets wherever possible, no more 100% green screen sound stage worlds that have 30 feet of dolly track. Oh and do not allow any couches on set, EVER. Give us some unique framing and camera movement, not flat angle shot-reverse shot.

    Show us Jedi training, we learned so much from it in Empire and it was a completely missed opportunity in AOTC/ROTS.
    Last edited by janstett, Dec 8, 2012
  13. ezekiel22x Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    Hire the John Carter team. Just watched it again and found it even more enjoyable the second time. On par with the OT for me. Admittedly, though, I can think of more than a handful of sf/f adventure films that are on par with the OT, so I don't really look at this thread's question as a matter of beating impossible odds.
  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I couldn't care less whether the PT failed to live up to the "expectations" of fans who loved the OT. Considering that I don't view the OT as superior to the PT, I only hope that the third trilogy will prove to be just as good as the other two.

    And I hope and pray that this new trilogy will not try to "recapture the magic" of the OT. I'm not interested in "recapturing the magic of the OT". I just want the new trilogy to be a good story, like its predecessors.
    Last edited by DRush76, Dec 8, 2012
    Count Yubnub likes this.
  15. Darth Trevius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    one reason the pt is not considered official SW material is due to the fact that they literally took everything that was great about the OT and obliterated it .. the OT had thousands of amazing artists who came up with the SW style .. the ships, the claymation, the robots, the armor, the costumes, the lightsabers, the R2 beeps with personality .. all this super cool stuff that lucas simply cannot take credit for all of it ... these were brilliant collaborators ... then he basically fires everybody except maybe a few voices .. hires a bunch of computer artists and tells them to copy everything in the OT and turn it into a toy story looking thing .. so what you have is a cartoonized version of the OT but that would probably be fine and hell .. probably have better acting too .. but no lucas tries and fails at putting human actors in his roger rabbit cartoon ... and that's not all .. then this group that had nothing to do with the creative process on the OT comes up with new great caracters as well .. like Jar Jar .. and those Trade Federation guys .. just pure garbage characters .. almost every character in the OT was awesome .. greedo .. boba .. chewie .. jabba .. even hammer head was kind of cool .. how they pulled that off i don;t know but it works .. then we have crap like wato .. and grevious .. how awesome would grevious have been if he actually looked real .. like they made a real robot or something .. anything .. just so we weren't watching roger rabbit with 4 lightsabers ... Lucas had a great opportunity to use his computer animation to make the other achievements of star wars maybe a little better .. combine claymation with computer animation just to fix the old process up a little .. not to obliterate it ..

    the ST will be good if they get the old team together and use real sets and use the computer animation to clean up the real effects .. they need the old costume and alien designers back too because whoever worked on PT sucked .. just make it as real looking as possible .. like super gritty .. and make the story and acting work as a movie and not so much a presentation on what ILM can do these days
  16. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Errr...what? I can understand you not considering the PT to be part of your own SW canon (I myself am pretty selective in this regard), but if we're talking about "official SW material" then I can assure you that the PT is held to the same level as the OT, regardless of your personal opinion on its quality.

    Wow...way to insult just about every artist that worked on the PT. You like Mythbusters? Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage? Yeah, they both made models for the PT. As did hundreds of other people. Or look at Trisha Biggar, who did the costuming -- some of her designs are absolute masterpieces. Or the concept artists who designed Grievous and Watto. But yes, go ahead and pretend that all the artistry in the PT was done through CGI when, in reality, in had more models than the entirety of the OT.

    This wouldn't irritate me so much, but it's clear you don't know what you're talking about, all the while denigrating the work of hundreds of exceptionally talented individuals.
    -NaTaLie- and Mystery_Roach like this.
  17. Doug625 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2012
    star 1
    But at least as special effects go, nothing can ever be as groundbreaking as the OT, and nothing was on par back in 1977. It's hard to explain to people who didn't experience it back in the day. We have "blockbusters" all the time now days, but Star Wars was far beyond a blockbuster
  18. Darth Trevius Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1

    irritation leads to hatred .. hatred leads to the dark side of the force .. yeah well my point is that .. what was good about the PT is when they took the style of the OT and tried to copy it .. the new ideas by the new people kinda sucked .. and the computer anime kind of sucked .. lots of things sucked about the PT but the point of the thread is what could make the ST acceptable .. and instead of decimating the style of the OT they should improve on it slightly but keep the same artists that worked on the OT and give it that real star wars style ... there is NO PLACE for jar jar in the OT or SW in general .. at least the ewoks didn't look like a cartoon drawing .. i suppose if u actually think the cgi works in a starwars movie then great that is your thing .. i view cgi as a complete failure and they would do better keeping it fully a cartoon or fully real as much as possible .. mixing the two simply looks bad and stupid beyond words ... i totally appreciate some of what the artists did with the PT .. there were may beautiful scenes and designs .. it just simply does not fit the gritty star wars universe that was presented in the OT .. and many of the characters just sucked ... every character in the OT ruled!! ... except maybe wicket .. but at least wicket wasn't a cartoon talking to a human .. lots of crap loaded into the PT that just did not matter .. the pod race .. blowing up the trade federation .. all the political crap .. just a huge waste of who cares ... we didn't need to see 3 movies of anakin .. i would go so far as to say we didn't even need one movie .. what was good about the OT was letting the story unravel and not knowing the full history and figuring it out with luke ... lucas ruins that by telling us everything stretched out to 3 movies .. the boba back story was the only thing everybody didn't already know .. they should have focused in a totally different story line about the sith .. and why is yoda like a hundred years younger and not like 30 years younger .. just garbage all the way thru .. because the collaborators on these movies are not up to par with the OT collaborators ... the PT artists could make a great disney cartoon i am sure .. but they can't handle the star wars universe .. end of story
  19. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    This post is Outrageous
    Truly
    Truly
    Truly Outrageous!
  20. Jimstarwarsfan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 2012
    star 1
    No stupid CGI, suposed to be funny creatures. Man, that stupid thicko with floppy ears ruined TPM for me. less CG and more real sets. If they can re-create the atmosphere that the ESB had, i would love that. The Millenium Falcon!!!!! :D Amazing Saber battles. Hamill to show everyone that he really is Luke Skywalker. a real twist that no one ever saw coming.

    Anakin wakes up to find it was all a dream. Wait, No that was dallas.[face_dancing]
  21. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    It's angry people like you that make this forum fun to read. They're just movies! Enjoy life! Read a book! Build a snowman! Sing holiday carols! Please don't get worked up over the PT.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  22. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    Making me say "its as good as the OT" will be easy. Making me say "its as good as the PT" will be much more difficult.
  23. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    The same old stuff goes on and on. Not even an announcement of a new trilogy changes things. Sigh.
    Last edited by DRush76, Dec 9, 2012
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  24. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    My sentiments exactly CooleyFett. Not only does this guy have no clue what he's talking about, he's also is pissing on incredible artists and designers because of his inability to accept the new. His stupidity reaches its zenith when he says "R2 beeps with personality". Yeah because suddenly he beeps all wooden in the PT? LMAO you have no brain. Seriously, if the ST has one tiny bit of claymation, puppets, or stop-motion - it will be terrible!
  25. Lord Optimus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2011
    star 2
    Real sets, use CGI only when absolutely necessary.

    Make the villain truly iconic, from his lines, to his voice, to his visual look. The villain should steal the scene everytime he is on screen. Have him featured in all the movies, getting killed at the end of the third one. If you have to kill somebody off, make it a side villain. Darth Maul should have made it to Episode 3 and been killed by Anakin instead of Dooku. Darth Maul could have been great but was just another cool looking villain with potential, like Grievous/Boba/Jango. The new villain will probably never be considered greater than Vader, but by the end of Episode 9 he should have similar legendary status as Vader and The Joker.