Saga What people want out of Star Wars films

I watch Star Wars for the world-building (or, more accurately, world-exploring, giving the peripheral impression of otherwordly ways of life), for fascinating creature and ship designs, for epic and dramatic lightsaber battles, and for sweeping scores by John Williams that complement (to put it lightly) the scenes. These have always been the strength of Star Wars, and the fact that The Force Awakens is so weak in literally all these areas is more disappointing than even the blatant fan service and play-it-safe cherry picking from the original trilogy. I do not understand those that seem to think Star Wars has ever been strong in other aspects. *All* Star Wars movies have their share of cheesy dialogue, which makes those who hold the OT up on a pedestal as being untouchable look rather ridiculous, and the films' strength has never been in acting, dialogue, script, character development, or plot. We watch Star Wars for the imagination, for the sights and sounds.

As for the prequel trilogy, it has some major weaknesses, yes: The love story in Attack of the Clones and most of the related scenes in Revenge of the Sith are laughable (at least it's in a so-bad-it's-funny way though), and Jar Jar was disturbingly / bizarrely overused in Phantom Menace, but aside from these there's no large-scale (in terms of screen-time) glaring issues that I see in the prequel trilogy. The cgi criticisms and the 'lack of emotional connection' issues I find very overblown (with one exception; the droid factory scene in AotC was pretty dreadful in both respects). Most of the cgi looks amazing even now (think of the Bongo journey and underwater city in tPM, the arena beasts in AotC, and the opening and Grievous in RotS), and there's less of a difference between the amount of miniatures and cgi used between the two trilogies than most think. Off the top of my head, the miniatures for Kamino and the Geonosis arena were amazing examples. As for the emotional connection issue, I though Anakin's relationship with his mother grounded the middle of tPM quite well, though this does leave large stretches of the film emotionally "dry" for those who aren't invested enough in the world's sights and sounds and seeing the Jedi as they were in their prime as I was. His return to his mother in AotC was even better, if even shorter, and in RotS the whole seduction / predatory aspect of Sidious and Anakin, and then Obi-Wan dealing with Padme and Anakin after the midpoint was absolutely dramatic enough emotionally in my opinion. It's probably true though that don't have nearly as much a need for emotional connections in stories to become invested than the apparent average though.

All this is granted that, once again, we do not expect Star Wars to excel in acting, dialogue, ect. because the OT doesn't either, with a few exceptions like Tarkin, Vader, and Ben Kenobi, two of which are obviously absent for most of it. But even here in the prequels, we find similar gems: Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan was a more consistently compelling character for me (especially the second two films) throughout the prequels than any single character in the OT, though Luke of course comes close. Qui-Gon was a fascinating protagonist, the most Jedi-like character in the way I always imagined them to be (truly monk-like) with the possible exception of ESB Yoda. I've never understood those criticisms of Liam Neeson's performance. Ian McDiarmid is still amazing both as Palpatine and as a pulpy villain in RotS. There's also the fact that, if you want to argue acting / script / dialogue, ect. the prequels actually contain what is by far the best scene of the saga in this department, in the form of Palpatine's telling Anakin the legend of Darth Plagueis at the opera house. If this doesn't ring true, go back and watch it, seriously.

The interaction between the three main characters in the OT is campy as heck. I have a suspicion this may be part of why it's most vocal fans enjoy it, but I truly think that (with the exception of Hayden Christenson and Natalie Portman circa tPM and AotC, who was literally worse than Christenson), the over-acting in the OT is far worse than the under-acting or whatever criticism you come up with for the prequels. And there were several moments when I was able to believe in HC's Anakin, mostly in RotS, perhaps thanks to Obi-Wan and Palpatine. I also genuinely enjoy his performance venting to Padme in AotC after killing the Tusken raiders, even if the throwing was a bit awkward. For that matter, I've never understood the Jake Lloyd hate either. Or, I guess I should say, if the original prequels didn't exist and people weren't judging him as a kid Darth Vader, then I really wouldn't understand it. He always felt like an actual, believable, if slightly precious, ~10 year old boy to me. I rewatched tPM recently for the first time in many years and was expecting the Worst Child Acting Of All Time, and was left baffled ("Yipee" was never going to sound good, especially not the second time).
The world in the prequels feels *dense*, whereas the world of the Force Awakens feels like it exists within the confines of where the characters are at the moment and the confines of a modern blockbuster. John William's score, shockingly, feels asleep for 90% of the time. I would also argue the prequels had the best scores of the saga (largely by virtue of stealing from the OT in creative ways in addition to amazing new pieces, but the point in isolation stands regardless). Duel of the Fates and Across the Stars alone are on par with, if not better than, the best pieces from the OT. The prequel trilogy has its share of bad moments, but I honestly feel the highs are actually higher than the OT (with the admitted exception of the lightsaber climaxes in RotJ and, to a lesser extent (blasphemy?) ESB. The Binary Sunset scene also deserves its iconic status. But the podrace, Duel of the Fates, Anakin watching his mom die and slaughtering the Tusken raiders, and a bevy of moments from RotS, including the opening sequence, Darth Plagueis, Mace Windu's death (if a bit over-the-top), and the lightsaber duels of Yoda v Emperor and especially Obi-Wan v Anakin, are more memorable to me than most of the supposed iconic moments from the OT. Basically, I think Star Wars should focus on it's strengths, and only touch up it's weaknesses to the extent that this has no negative impact on the reasons it became iconic in the first place. To me, Force Awakens fails at this.

I am curious what things others truly value most about Star Wars.

 

This was a great post. I was doing some thinking over the weekend about some of the disconnect between "OT vs. PT" zealots, and it struck me that anymore, I can break it down to just details, after years of wholesaling entire movies as "bad". Trouble is, Star Wars is rooted in lots of small - yet epic - details to form an otherworldly epic big picture.

As someone that's always leaned more towards the OT, it's taken me a while to realize the prequels were so close in terms of execution; granted, I hated the HC/NP acting/chemistry, so it's a cancer that permeates II & III for me, but in terms of visual execution the only things that totally leave me wanting are:

TPM:
1. Jar-Jar; not so much the character as a whole, but just his omnipresence. It's just too much.
2. Silly Laurel & Hardy-esque battle droid antics
3. Podrace announcer(s).
4. "Civil War" feel of Gungan/Droid battle.
5. Anakin's serendipitous destruction of droid ship.

AOTC:
1. Silly chase sequence after post-assassination attempt (including terrible dialogue between Anakin & Obi-wan).
2. Droid factory.
3. Coliseum scene.
4. Yoda's lightsaber antics.

ROTS:
1. Mishandling of Grievous character.
2. Over-the-top Anakin/Obi-Wan duel.

I'm not saying anyone else in the world would/should agree with these things, I'm just pointing out how trivial some of these are in the grand scheme of things; yet how they can soil your investment in something in terms of feel. I only included the PT movies because they are a fairly consistent frame of reference as a group (ROTJ is a huge piece of junk outlier for me in the OT). ANH & TESB I feel are pretty much untouchable because they have believable characters (read: believable = totally invested), and it can vacillate between dark, campy, and euphoric while always holding your attention. They have a way of feeling "small" in scope somehow too; that's probably not a great way to describe it, but it's a certain claustrophobic feeling and pacing that draws me in to a well-crafted movie (The Exorcist was great at this, and it's something that so many horror movies miss the mark with.)

As polarizing as Star Wars can seem at times (especially on an anonymous forum), I think there's really very little that truly separates us in terms of Star Wars as an "essence".

As always, IMHO.

 

I appreciate your reply. Finding intelligent discussion that gets to the specifics of the strengths and weaknesses of the saga is difficult.

Agreed, #5 is the low point of TPM for me (especially, "let's try spinning! that's a good trick!"). The fact that it was seemingly meant to parallel Luke in ANH just felt almost insulting to Luke's victory and that film. Granted, the stakes and presumably difficulty are lower, but it still is one of the few clear moments to me that gives credence to those who say Lucas started pandering to kids. It just feels horribly out of place with the tension of all the other set piece sequences it's lodged between (especially Duel of the Fates).

I also agree precisely on Jar Jar. I guess I'd come to accept when young that comic relief characters were part of the deal with many stories, and no humor is guaranteed to succeed with everyone (conversely, my dad always found him hilarious...), but as said it's the fact that he's such a weirdly major character in terms of screen time, which surprises me every time I rewatch TPM. The uncertainty of humor also extends to the droids, except that I honestly never really noticed this.

The podrace announcer, while cheesy in the line delivery, I actually liked the concept of in the sense that of course there would need to be translations for such diversely populated planets. I thought he(?) also made the race feel more immersive in the sense of it being an *event* for the Tatooine populace.

As for the Naboo battle, it felt much more to me like the natives defending their homeland with traditional weaponry versus the imperialistic invaders, meaning to parallel the Ewok vs Empire battle in ROTJ. For that matter, I think it far surpassed the Endor battle, which is admittedly unimpressive on it's own merits. What about it felt like a Civil War, or simply didn't work for you (besides Jar Jar's idiocy)?

Interesting; I thought the chase sequence, especially the first half with Obi-Wan leaping through the glass to grab the droid, was one of the most legitimately thrilling sequences in the PT, and recalled the chaotic metropolis of things like Blade Runner perfectly in one of the more unique "ship" sequences in Star Wars. Which part of the dialogue fell flat for you? Ewan sells every single line for me to the point that I enjoy Obi-Wan as a character more consistently than any other in the saga. I suppose his acting strength overpowers Hayden's weakness overall, such that I don't mind Anakin whenever they interact just because of everything Ewan gets to do with it.

The Droid factory was a complete failure in tone (3PO), character (Anakin ignoring Padme), and plot (they just got captured by the same aliens immediately preceding it anyway). One of the lowest points of the PT.

The first half of the Coliseum fight is still probably my favorite action scene of AOTC (save maybe Jango vs Obi-Wan). I love how each character escapes their pillar in a way that reflects their personality, and the arena beasts are my favorite creatures of the saga. Things certainly get a little chaotic later, but it's still exciting to see dozens of sabers light up. What about this didn't work for you?

As for Yoda, I certainly understand those who take issue with it. For me, though slightly questionable, it doesn't feel out of character because we see in ROTS that the war takes its toll on Yoda's confidence, and an additional 20 years of reflective hermitage will also change someone. That said, his fight with Dooku does still largely fail to be compelling just because he moves around so constantly and weightlessly that there's not much tension.

Having seen the 2003 animated Clone Wars (which are incredible in terms of action and animation), it was inevitably disappointing to see Grievous so toned down, considering how much of an unstoppable presence he was there. That being said, it did at least give a reason for his weakness in Mace Windu crushing his chest just before ROTS starts. His voice, design, and animation were all brilliant though, IMO. I get the feeling you aren't referring to his combat prowess however?

As for the duel, "Epic" things hold strong appeal with me, so the scale of the fight was exactly what I was hoping for considering how important it is to the overall mythos. The choreography wasn't as realistic as Duel of the Fates, but the scope and emotional impact of the battle (Ewan McGregor was brilliant) put it on par with TPM and ROTJ as the best duel of the saga for me.

Regarding believable characters, the most believable characters of the saga for me (by a large margin) are Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Ben Kenobi, and Tarkin. So considering the amount of screen-time each gets, I suppose it's inevitable I also prefer the PT in terms of characters. Luke's actual character development is definitely compelling and immersive, there's just certain points where the over-acting breaks immersion, especially when Yoda or Ben isn't around to give his naivete grounding in the first two. Han just felt too much like "Harrison Ford in space" at times, and I honestly thought Leia's acting especially in ANH verged on bad. So when it's just the three of them together, I guess I never had any one character to save it, unlike Obi-Wan with Anakin in the PT. Add to this the fact that romances in any story are a slog for me, and Han and Leia make a good third of ESB fall flat. Ironically, because the romance there is still better acted than in AOTC, it's actually less enjoyable because it's unable to serve as comedy.

I agree with the OTs ability to vacillate through tones. I suppose I generally prefer consistent tones, which is probably a part of why ROTS is my favorite SW film. And your explanation of the appeal of the "small"-ness makes perfect sense, as I have always most loved scenes that start off with a birds-eye view vista of the location before jumping into the individual scenes. The grand scale of the PT is a big part of why it's more aesthetically appealing to me. That and not being a fan of the "used-future" look as much as pristine opulence. Interestingly, I've never found the appeal in horror as a genre either. The Lord of the Rings trilogy are essentially my favorite films, and go pretty much as far in the opposite direction of intimate scope as possible.

Overall, I agree that in large part the appeal of Star Wars should be non-divisive. My original point that somewhat got lost in a defense of the prequels was the elements that were most uniquely "Star Wars", the strongest aspects of it, were almost entirely absent in The Force Awakens.

 

Stone Pilot, I just wanted to clarify a couple of things you asked about.

Regarding the ""Civil war" Gungan battle, I was referring the the "line 'em up in the field" nature of warfare, with the battle droids cartoonishly firing gazillions of blaster bolts into the shield, and then just marching straight ahead and walking through it, and zzzzzz...it just lost me right there (I suppose it didn't help that Ii didn't feel emotionally invested in the Gungans). It didn't feel high-tech. I suppose it could be chalked up to being an ironic juxtaposition with the space battle taking place, or the fact that battle droids typically overwhelm with sheer numbers, and so don't need any sort of strategy beyond "point and shoot", but the whole scene just felt...insulting or something.

The AOTC chase scene lost me with the outrageous twisting of physics; Anakin plummeting was the bridge too far. It was just another one of those "feel" things; everyone defines suspension of disbelief in different ways, even when it's all unbelievable, eh. The whole thing just seemed too "fun" for them, and lacked gravity (no pun intended, seriously). Also, I realize what they were going for with the constant "I'm sorry, Master"s during this and the restaurant scene, but it almost made me uncomfortable. To that end, maybe that part of their interplay was actually more effective than I originally gave it credit for

It's funny, you mentioned the romance in TESB. That fell flat for me too (especially as an 11 year old). And though it's a trivial thing, I would have liked some exposition regarding Boba Fett getting the jump on Han going to Cloud City ("he was heading in that direction" when he was tailing the Falcon doesn't cut it for me). The Imperial fleet had all just jumped to hyperspace; they then jumped again? Or did Boba know before the jump?

I would touch on some more things, but typing on the phone has its limits.

I really enjoy your observations. I'm looking forward to watching the prequels again with a fresh set of eyes.

 

Fun stories. Engaging characters. Engaging friendships/romance. Things to be expanded on in future stories. History of the galaxy. Make it tens of thousands of years old. Not years or decades. Minor details that give everything character.
Completely unalike characters getting dragged together on a grand adventure against an unstoppable evil.
A mix of comedy, adventure, romance, philosophy, politics, horror and so on and so forth.

 

Stone Pilot Cheers for your post!

And welcome to the forum.

I love Star Wars for all its references to our classic tales, to our mythology, to our real world history and to philosophy and how it combined all of these elements into a space-fantasy universe. It has always intrigued me how George Lucas has managed to insert into, what's supposed to be only an imaginative world, many of our real world elements and references and how he has managed to make people believe (well, me at the least) how there was a logic behind everything in this universe: from the space ships designs, the cities, the worlds, the buildings to the characters costumes.

Despite all the flack the prequels continue to receive, I still find their story to be richer and more complex than the originals. I think that if we only take the first six films together, they form a nice circle. Even if I enjoyed and liked very much The Force Awakens, there was a part of me still mixed. I love the characters of The Force Awakens (Finn and Rey have become some of my favorite characters in Star Wars), its sense of humor, and of adventure and the Sequel Trilogy had a very good start. However, I also feel, just as you, that this movie wasn't ambitious and didn't try to explore further the Star Wars universe and all of its mythology behind it. I do hope however that we'll have the chance to go further and deeper into the Star Wars universe with Episode 8 and 9, than The Force Awakens actually did, giving this time a more satisfying ending to the saga with the Sequel Trilogy while hoping that those movies won't be cloned by Disney to infinity (fingers crossed), because every good stories has to end somehow.

If you want to read my thoughts and reviews of each Star Wars movies: http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...after-many-years-thoughts-and-views.50033269/

 

True excitement!
So far, I'm satisfied.

 

Entertainment first and foremost. Second, they are very nostalgic for me, because I have been watching since '77. The saga means a lot to me and is my favorite "mythology" as it were.

 

A story that wants me coming back and experiencing it and wanting to see the next story asap.

 

I think, at the end of the day, all people want are great stories and relatable, well written characters.That's always been the core to Star Wars and I think it always should be.

 

I want to enjoy a story about good people I care about and to cheer for them as they overcome the obstacles of bad people who eventually get what they deserve. All of it set to JW's awesome scores.

 

Something that doesn't seem real that can pull me out of the real world with a story by George Lucas.

 

What do I want out of Star Wars films?

Episodes 1-6 are classic space fairytale. I got what was created by George Lucas and I love most of it. I got Battlefront 2 and the Filoni TCW-Rebels series. I was hoping the new battlefront would feature the FULL Star Wars experience, but they were bias to half of it. I wouldnt mind seeing a graphic novel that covers episodes 1-6 and focuses on the perspective of Palpatine. Nothing much else really needed. Dont really care for new movies or new stories outside of Georges 6. So if there was a more Star Wars to want it be in the video realm.

 

Great world building, like you said Stone Pilot, and a great cast of characters are the two things I'd want most from Star Wars movies. I'd also want there to be some myth element with a story that's complex enough that it doesn't insult the audience. World building is something that TFA unfortunately failed to do by making all of its planets look the exact same, however it did excel in the character department.

The first 6 movies succeeded in all four areas each, except for maybe ANH.

 

What parts failed?

 

As it was the first one, the story wasn't as complicated as the others. No bashing intended.

 

Fun and excitement

Likable, identifiable characters

Any of the things that I look for in good movies (i.e. tonal consistency, a good screenplay, good cinematography, an understanding of film theory, etc.)

Classic mythic elements used in new and creative ways

More focus on telling the story at hand than acting as a lore book

A sense of mystique surrounding the Force and other mythic elements

 

Why does a story have to be complicated to be good?

 

None of the SW movies have a very complicated story. Just because certain elements don't always make sense doesn't mean they are complicated

 

I never said ANH's story was bad, I said it wasn't complicated. I'd LIKE a complicated story but that doesn't mean I hate ANH because it's simplistic. I love all the movies.

The plots of the other six movies make sense, but compared to ANH, they are more interesting and complicated. Maybe not complicated compared to other films, but complicated in a Star Wars sense.

If something doesn't make sense or is hard to follow, I'd consider it convoluted. Example: algebra.

 

I would say most people want to go on an exciting adventure with likable and humorous characters who are fighting for something meaningful with the mythological force as their ally.

 

SW is no different then any movie I'm interested in seeing: I want a good story, characters that resonate with me, and good drama that give the movie some emotion.

That is why I rarely goto blockbuster movies anymore cause all they care about is wowing people with action & CGI and could care less about the characters. SW goes deeper then that and that's why I love it.

 

I agree with what others have said about making a good movie first and foremost. Something I do hope to see more of in future films are awesome worlds brought to life, like Naboo and Kamino. Visual spectacle isn't the most important thing but it's something I wanna see in Star Wars movies. Show us more of that galaxy far far away.

 

Casual movie-goers: want fast,fun, and furious space action with fun characters and a dash of humor
OT fans: An original trilogy vibe to it like above
PT fans: not for it to be a replica of the OT in too many ways.
Me: I kind of go with the flow. I love PT and OT so whatever the next 2 episodes are like, I'll more than likely enjoy them anyway. Loved TFA and it had the OT feel