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Saga What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Hudnall, Mar 3, 2004.

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  1. Darthman1992

    Darthman1992 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jul 17, 2011
    Well it sort of is, unless you are fluent in Elizabethan English.


    Okay, just kidding. I was talking about the type of storyline not the diloague. I don't think I need to say anything about some of their love scene dialogue. Though do I think that the basis for Anakin's storyline is pretty Shakespearin because of the ROMEO & JULIET style forbidden and sort of impulsive love in Ep II, and his corruption in Ep III and his attempts to stop certain visions from coming true but in his efforts causing them are very reminiscent of MACBETH.
     
  2. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2003
    What exactly did you have in mind?
     
  3. Aerevyn

    Aerevyn Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Oct 9, 2007
    Storyline
    Leia as Luke's sister. First-off it doesn't add up when Leia says that she remembers her mother as "very beautiful" but we now know that Amidala died in childbirth. Secondly, it felt like a bit of a cop-out so she ended up with Han.

    Character
    Both Jake Lloyd's and Hayden Christiansen's depictions of Anakin. JL had an annoying voice and didn't seem much of a good actor. HC had a good angry/upset face but didn't seem capable of other emotions...
    Blame lies with GL of course who did 90% of the movie in front of a blue/green screen (and who wrote the awful dialogue). JL was just a bad cast.

    Scene
    For me it's a tie between the Ewok-aided attack on the bunker and any of the god-awful love scenes between Anakin & Amidala. If those are the emperors best troops how come they get owned by a bunch of primitive hairy dwarves?

    Q: How do you make a minor masterpiece?

    A: Make a major masterpiece then ruin it with 3 rubbish prequels.
     
  4. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    He specializes in portraying angry and upset, at least that's what I've seen in his other films.

    I don't agree with you about the prequels, but that's probably one of the most fair criticisms of Hayden that I've read on these boards.

    But that being said, I thought he portrayed sheer happiness pretty well in the scene in which Padme tells him that she's pregnant.
     
  5. EvilSkillZ

    EvilSkillZ Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2005
    This was very well done. I think this sums up what a lot of people couldn't stand about the PT even when ROTS was a lot better than TPM and AOTC. It's really hard to watch that all important scene of anakin turning without doing a What the ....? or you just start cringing.

    For me:
    Most annoying characters: Jar Jar Binks, Padme, Hayden as Anakin, and most cgi characters in the Saga.

    Most annoying plotline: The idea that Anakin was a magical birth. And George deciding to start Episode 1 with Anakin as a little kid. Would have been a much better PT if he was older and they found a better actor to play him.

    Most annoying scenes: Anakin Turn, Padme giving up on life, Anakin flying at the end of TPM, 3 quarters of ROTJ.
     
  6. Aytee-Aytee

    Aytee-Aytee Jedi Master star 5

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    Jul 20, 2008
    Does the CGI Clone Wars crapfest count?


    Because if it does, the entire "Anakin Skywalker Gets an Apprentice" plotline irritates me. Ashoka Tano was created for no other reason than to sell products to little girls, and shoehorned into the Clone Wars storyline with no bearing or thought about the AotC or RotS.


    If not, then I will put the entire prequel trilogy as irritating. It's not about characters or storyline...its about getting Anakin Skywalker into the damn Vader suit. Nothing else matters.
     
  7. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2003
    Rubbish prequels? You mean like Return of the Jedi rubbish?
     
  8. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2003
    This is why all 3 PT movies need multiple views. Anakin loved Padme as soon as he saw her. The scene on the Naboo cruiser is an underrated scene. Where Anakin is saying he is cold and Padme comforts him. JL did kinda suck as an actor, but they both nailed that scene. The leaving his mom thing really bothered him. Watch Anakin's face when Mace rejects him. He was bothered by that even as a kid he was angry. Yoda knew this. In Clones Anakin killed those sandpeople, he could have easily left the kids alive or maybe put the women & kids in a cage or something. He killed kids that had nothing to do with what their fathers did. How do we even know the Sand People are even evil? Anakin consistently challenged Obi Wan's rank, leadership & advice..Palpatine only made matters worse with his ego stroking. Anakin turned when Qui Gon took him away. That kid was always bad news. Yoda knew it, but the respect/appreciation of Qui Gon from the console had an effect.

    Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to Suffering. No way was his turn SUDDEN.
     
  9. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Because they kidnapped an innocent woman and spent a month slowly torturing her to death. If that isn't evil, I'm not sure what is.

    What Anakin did to the women and children was wrong, but I'm always surprised that people are willing to completely overlook what the Sand People did to Shmi.

    I would not say that Anakin was "always bad news," but he did have issues due to his slave background and leaving his mother at such an early age, issues which the Jedi were unable or unwilling to address. I think it was a bit of both, unable and unwilling. I don't think they really knew how to help Anakin.

    At any rate, I would agree with you that the signs of his downfall were always there. But saying that he was "always bad news" seems to indicate that he was doomed from the start and there was no other possible path for him other than the one he took. That I don't believe.
     
  10. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2003
    Good debate....but from what POINT OF VIEW? I dont think they captured Shmi at the homestead. I think the Sand People are the only real Tatooine natives and view everyone else as trasspassers. They seem hostile toward everyone. They are never in any of the Tatooine cities. I would not call them evil, just anti social and not found of outsiders. Shmi was OUT looking for something...maybe she was on property the Sand People claim as theirs. Its a fun debate though. Could be its own thread.
     
  11. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2003
    Without Palpatine would Anakin have turned on the Jedi? Maybe he was not "always bad news"...but something was not right with the kid. That was what Yoda was trying to say. Something was not right. If you show someone the complete saga who has never seen it, I dont think many would be surprised that Anakin went bad. A few months ago I showed the saga to my girlfriend who had never seen any of them and there were two GASP/OMG moments that I remember from her. When Anakin kills the younglings and when Anakin pops Lukes hand off on Bespin. Those two scene really gave her a reaction, but I didnt get any reaction from her when Anakin got burned, because at that point he was officially a bad guy.
     
  12. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    The Tusken slaughter has been its own thread multiple times since 2001; another user recently joked about how the Tusken slaughter could be its own forum. It usually isn't a fun debate, but I suppose in the right frame of mind from all posters, it could be.

    In answer to a couple of your comments: according to Wookieepedia, the Sand People "stormed the homestead" and took Shmi. Strictly from the films, I got the impression that Shmi was kidnapped on land belonging to the Lars family--she was picking mushrooms off vaporators, and I don't know why she would be doing that away from home. Vaporators used to draw moisture from the ground would be on the property of the moisture farmer. The AOTC novelization mentions that the Tuskens had been coming closer to the homestead for some time and that Cliegg and Owen had started keeping blasters on them even inside the house.

    The Sand People may very well be the only real Tatooine natives and may dislike the settlers. However, as his mother's murder did not justify Anakin's slaughter of the Tusken women and children, the Sand People were certainly not justified in kidnapping and brutally torturing Shmi to death--a far more brutal death than Anakin dealt the innocent Tuskens, I might add--simply because she was not a Tusken. Which is my point, and why it usually isn't a fun debate--the double standard that some people have regarding the Sand People's deeds and Anakin's deeds is one that I find irritating. (And that's a general statement, not directed at your specific post.) The Sand People can be "antisocial and not fond of outsiders" without kidnapping and slowly torturing said outsiders. Additionally, they not only tortured Shmi to death, but they murdered 26 farmers who tried to rescue her, and chopped off Cliegg's leg.

    The first paragraph of the Rituals section in the Tusken Raider link on Wookieepedia gives some information as to why the Tuskens might have kidnapped Shmi. I suspect that Luke in ANH was about to become a victim of this ritual as well, although of course I can't back that up with anything but my own guesses. They also came into the city in TPM and shot at pod racers.

    I don't think he would have. As far as Yoda--he was indicating that Anakin could not be trained in the traditional Jedi manner and therefore the Jedi, as they were at that time, could not train him. And I think he was right, at least to a point. Although I also think that if he had not been trained, the Sith would have found him anyway and the situation would have been a hell of a lot worse.
     
  13. Aytee-Aytee

    Aytee-Aytee Jedi Master star 5

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    Jul 20, 2008
    Oh, also the Wookiee Battle from RotS. It doesn't so much as "irritate" me as much as it makes me want to break down and cry.

    I went into the theatre expecting something truly epic....but then it only lasted for like a minute and a half....
     
  14. EvilSkillZ

    EvilSkillZ Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jan 16, 2005
     
  15. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I agree. Prior to the release of spoilers from ROTS, I thought this was the route that Lucas would take, and I was disappointed that he had Anakin killing the Jedi (including the children) as a type of initiation rite instead. I assumed that Palpatine would kill Padme himself and then make it appear to Anakin that it was an accident that the Jedi allowed to happen.

     
  16. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    I agree with your sentiments mostly, but at this stage Sidious was all Anakin had left. Also, Sidious saved Anakin's life (from the Mustafar lavabank), and you could see why this would make him completely subserviant to The Emperor. Finding out Padme has died quelches what little spirit Anakin has left, it is at this point that he is no longer trying to overthrow Sidious, at least until Luke comes along. But maybe I'm stating the obvious.

    On your point about killing Mace and Obi-Wan; with Mace it was an act of desperation, I don't think he truely wanted Mace dead at the time. His only link to the power to save Padme is about to be erased, and he just moves to stop it from happenening... he seems surprised when Palpatine kills Mace. After the initial moment of regret in letting it happen ("What have I done?") he composes himself slightly and takes the easy (or more seductive) way out. For Anakin, he no longer has a choice.
    I see his perception of Obi-Wan different however. Notice when Padme initially asks him "What about Obi-Wan?" Anakin doesn't seem to hate Obi-Wan yet at all - "We can only hope he has remained loyal to the Chancellor". This is after he has already stocked up on darkside points with the Temple Raid. By the time Obi-Wan (and Padme) confront him on Mustafar, however, he's further in, and Obi-Wan's appearance enrages him. But even after he thinks Obi-Wan and Padme are together, he still tries to see if Obi-Wan is on his side before coming to the conclusion "If you're not with me, the you're my enemy!"
    I think it's only here, after extended experience with the darkside, that he personally wants Obi-Wan dead.
     
  17. EvilSkillZ

    EvilSkillZ Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jan 16, 2005
    Sidious was all that Anakin had left and did save his life. He is upset at the Jedi and his anger has made him hate Obi-Wan. Basically his anger has taken over his complete being where there is no truth left in Anakin, and the truth doesn't matter anymore. He is beyond lost. I do understand again what george was trying to do. And I won't say it's all bad. The scene with Anakin and Obi-Wan before the battle (when Obi-Wan says, Let her go) is one of the most riveting moments in the entire saga. That along with the scene of Obi-Wan telling Padme Anakin has gone to the darkside. Both those scenes are amazing, and I wish it was shared with more great scenes.

    You did a good job of explaining what George was going for during the Anakin into Vader scene. The problem is, when Anakin says, "What have I done?" and then bows to Palpatine and then agrees to kill anyone in his path...It seems a little forced and doesn't seem like natural great storytelling. This is my opinion and how a lot of other people felt during the scene. It takes me out of the movie and it just doesn't feel right. I know everyone's opinion on art/movies is subjective, but that's my thoughts. I still think it would have been a lot better if you could understand why Anakin would blame Obi-Wan or the jedi for everything. I think Anakin had to lose something like Padme earlier in the movie. George's hands were tied because he needed the birth at the end of the movie and he had to fit this story into the OT. That is the problem with Prequels in the first place. He wasn't free to tell a natural evolving story. He had to fit episode 3 into a larger puzzle and I think the movie itself fell short of greatness because of it. There is some truly great scenes in the movie, but the turn scene was so important and felt wrong for so many.

    Lucas as you stated, did make an attempt for Anakin to blame everyone if they weren't loyal to Palpatine. He didn't merely hate everyone for no reason. George did give an effort and I thought it was a decent attempt
     
  18. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2003
    What city were the Sand people shooting from? They were hiding somewhere along the race path. Was the Pod Race track in a city? When I say city I mean like the city/settlements that were featured in ANH n TPM.
     
  19. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    You make some good points, I agree for the most part. I feel Empire Strikes Back is a better made movie too, but ROTS is a close second. Also, on what you said about the final duel, I agree that the Empire duel is better. There is something about the way the lightsabers move that makes it less real than the ESB duel. And the lava-top duel was slightly uneccessary.

    One thing I think could have been handled better was the order in which Anakin killed the Jedi and the Seperatists. Personally I feel it would have made more sense for him to take out the Seperatists first, people who had alread been his enemy for years. Without more experience with the darkside, it does seem abrupt when he goes straight to killing younglings.

    However, one thing that makes the turn strongly work for me is the idea that something supernatural is going on in the pledge/turn scene. Anakin looks entranced, and to me this strongly implies there are spiritual forces at work (perhaps what Yoda is sensing when he feels the turn). Also, during the pledge he seems to take in the aura, and, for lack of a better word, relaxes and accepts it (particularly when Sidious says "A powerful Sith you will become". Anakin opens his eye
     
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    The Boonta Eve took place just outside Mos Espa and started in the Mos Espa Grand Arena.

    Boonta Eve article on Wookieepedia

    So they either came into Mos Espa or came pretty close. It's not like the Tuskens stayed out in the desert away from the settlers and the settlers hunted them down.

    And city or suburbs, my other points still stand.
     
  21. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Chewie's just that good.
     
  22. EvilSkillZ

    EvilSkillZ Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jan 16, 2005
    I liked your idea of the supernatural going on. I do think George plays into that during the movie. I also feel that aura during that
     
  23. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Heh, I'm not that optimistic. AOTC is much harder for me to suspend disbelief for. Love The Phantom Menace though.

    I love that scene. The music is spot on, especially the way it starts when Palpatine tells the story of Darth Plagueis. And I agree, that aura is present, you can really see why Anakin listens to him at this point.

    Well, by the time we get to Anakin and Padme's scene on Mustafar he basically spells it out that he wishes to overthrow Sidious and rule the galaxy with Padme. When he came to this idea is debatable. Anakin is clearly in it for Sidious' power in the turn scene. It's hard to explain, but I think it is a combination of Palpatine still being the father-figure when he is revealed as Sidious, but also a means to an end, and someone Anakin deep down doesn't really like. If that combination is possible...

    Well, actually, in the script Vader is only referred to as Vader when he has the suit on. It's an interesting touch. But I know what you are saying. To me, Anakin is eventually very eager for this sign of status, one of only two Sith Lords where the Jedi wouldn't even make him a Master.

    Agreed. The movie holds a lot of weight, it's very fitting as the final piece of the saga puzzle. And I think the mirroring, which is at least partially intentional, is a very underrated aspect of the movies, particularly in the prequels. It's obvious Lucas loves these movies, and it was really a good effort to add to the overall "obvious" arc of the movies. The parallels helps me forgive some of the lamer dialogue in the prequels.

    I agree really, and the continuity is hit and miss. While on a deeper level I love the way the moves play of each other, some of Obi-Wan's dialogue in ANH has been cheapened a bit. I think it is almost impossible to write a prequel for a movie or series and not run into problems like you mentioned. I'm in two minds about the reduction of the grand scope as you said. When Obi-Wan says he never owned a droid, it sometimes takes me out of the movie for a moment. Same with the line "he was afraid you would run off on some damn fool idealistic crusade like your father did". Um, when did that happen? Anakin joins the Jedi Order, this was clearly an unestablished fact at the time of ANH production. However, Obi-Wan's dialogue with Vader when they meet again for the first time is spot-on. This scene is greatly enhanced by the prequels for me. "I've been waiting for you Obi-Wan. We meet again at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but a learner, now I am the Master." "Only a Master of evil, Darth." Great stuff, and quite well done on Lucas
     
  24. Bens_Dad

    Bens_Dad Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Sep 26, 2010
    Well, this is Anakin's story, not Chewbacca's. It's not even mentioned in the book adaptation of the film.
     
  25. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2003
    That sand people are NEVER IN THE CITY with the rest of the population.
     
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