Saga What plotline, character or scene in the entire Saga irritates you the most?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Hudnall, Mar 3, 2004.

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  1. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Indeed. It does seem to be a sign of insecurity when one must validate his or her opinion by insisting that the "real" fandom or "most people" or "anyone with taste" agrees with him or her, as opposed to simply having an opinion and allowing others to disagree.

    There actually are people who dislike the prequels but do not insist on taking the attitude that their opinion is fact. Those are the people who are capable of having enjoyable discussions.

  2. Pendulous_Dewlap Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2011
    star 1
    I'm nothing if not predictable.:p

    The Anakin-Padme 'romantic' arc of AOTC was one of the most painfully boring passages of film that I've ever had to endure. The fact that it was coupled with the equally tedious scenes on Kamino made Episode II's first hour almost unendurable.

    The Han-Leia romance may not be brilliant, but at least it's not encumbered by endless passages of clunky dialogue and wooden acting.
  3. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I would like to think it's a fact that they "suck"; because liking something that objectively sucks might actually be cool. Unfortunately, it's only a "fact" that they suck to you, and, perhaps, a few million others. Shared opinions do not constitute real facts. If they did, holy books would be totally infallible and incontestable (indeed, there might only be ONE holy book, and one book and religion, period, which all human beings would be subject to obeying -- what a scary thought), the sun would actually orbit the earth, slavery would still be endemic to all corners of the world, and Justin Bieber really would be responsible for the downfall of popular music. Luckily, things work a little differently.

    It also makes me laugh when a person uses descriptors like "quality films"; as if one is talking about electric drills or something that has a practical function. Art is made for reasons of commerce and pleasure; it has little or nothing to do with "quality", per se. I don't prefer quality films; I simply like films. Naturally, I am inclined to think the films I like are "better made" than those that I dislike, but that isn't necessarily the case. Really, at most, you might be able to say, "I prefer films that a larger number of people tend to enjoy or avoid saying mean things about", or more simply, "I prefer films that don't bore me or make me feel uncomfortable", because, in essence, that's what this comes down to.
  4. obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    star 3
    :

    The fact of the matter is that the prequels are in fact VERY WELL MADE FILMS. Saying they "suck", a poor immature term imo, is very disrespectful in that it completely discredits the amount of EXTREMELY TALENTED artists that worked on them.

    -Find me a poorly composed shot from the PT; there are next to NONE.

    -All the model work is exceptional to the point that a lot of people thought it was cg.

    -The music was composed by John Williams and performed by some of the best musicians in the world.

    -The sound design is second to none.

    -The costume design, and how it looks being photographed, is top notch. I feel this aspect of the PT often times gets overlooked.

    I could go on and on. It is just a little bit upsetting that individuals can be so ignorant to say they in fact "suck."

  5. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    That doesn't qualify them for not "sucking". It merely indicates a certain heritage or lineage: i.e., the main artist, George Lucas, employed and worked with people who could help him create, maintain or expand upon a pre-established foundation. A better word than "quality", here, I think, would be "lavish", or even "decadent". That is, yes, the prequels are more "fancy-looking" and/or "fancy-sounding" than the "average" film -- even the "average" blockbuster, arguably -- but they are not, necessarily, possessed of "quality". Ultimately, that kind of judgement is a personal one, residing in the eye (and ear) of the beholder.
  6. obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    star 3
    I disagree. They are technically very well made films. These are the facts of the matter. The subjective matter is that of story, and the style he chose to go with.
  7. Drewton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2009
    star 4
    You listed several elements that were good about the prequels, but not the script. I agree many artistic elements of the prequels were good, maybe even great (although John William's soundtrack was butchered in places), but I didn't think that the writing was good enough. Therefore, even though I like them, they're mediocre movies to me.
  8. obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    star 3
    Only Lucas takes all elements of film as equal parts. Watch some Flash Gordon or listen to some radio dramas--THAT is what the dialogue is based off of.

    I recommend watching Fog City Mavericks. Very well put together documentary about the indie boom.
  9. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    They are technically advanced, and maybe, even, accomplished. I am not sure I could go as far as factually stating that they are "technically very well made", however. A small but important difference. That, to me, is, rather -- as I have attempted to suggest -- a subjective matter. Fundamentally, I cannot assert something like that without qualifying it as my opinion. One reason that should humble you, here, in my view, is that plenty of people say the visual effects, for example, are NOT particularly well-done, or that the music is poorer, in general, than that composed for the OT, and/or badly edited into the PT films, etc. I cannot objectively call these people "wrong". I can merely articulate a different view.
  10. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    1)the "Chosen One" prophecy, Anakin's virgin birth, Midichlorians, and the search for the ultimate power to cheath death...No less.:D Wish it hadn't been there.

    2)Jar Jar Binks and the way Lucas went probably too far (I know he was made for children but...). It's not that I strongly dislike him. But I clearly remember the moment when I saw him appear back in 1999 : I said to myself "Oh no, no...What the hell...[face_laugh] "

    3)the picnic scenes in AOTC and Lord Vader's big "NOOOOOOOOHHH" in ROTS...Really felt embarassed the first time and even now when watching again.

    4)The Ewoks and the "monster's factory" syndrome (Jabba's palace) in ROTJ. Basically over the edge to me. Although Ewoks are so cute !

    Just to fuel the debate and re-center on topic...:cool:
  11. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    Aww very good post and I totally agree, some people just dont have the brain mass to pay attention to detail. When you see the behind the scene stuff, all the work that goes into making just ONE of these SIX episodes how could any say a movie sucks with all the work put in?? All those people on set, to make each episode great. Truth be told it really is just trolling. Nothing more nothing less.
  12. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    I agree with Ord-Mantell70. Yet, this is a very subjective topic because everyone's views differ. It doesn't mean anyone is wrong just different and it's OKAY.

    I also don't like how Dooku's, Maul's, Qui-Gon's or Tarkin's deaths were handled. I really like Tarkin and Dooku too! Yes, a Sith and an Imperial. [face_love]

    Or the entire flavor of Anakin in the PT...or the supposed' bond between Obi and Ani...truly disappointing when I consider Sir Alec's melancholy and broken Old Ben's pain when telling Luke of his father. Such a letdown.

    Also, really didn't like the Jedi Order because they weren't very different from the Sith at all and the only truly unlikable (though interesting) Sith was Sidious. (Though Ian was wonderful to watch as arch villain).

    TPM goes down as the first Liam Neeson role I really *didn't* like and I think it's partly the cold/stoic manner of the char and the bad writing.


  13. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
    Quite right. All this is pretty personal. Nature of the topic.

    But I'm not averse to the PT themes I've mentioned in themselves, it's essentially regarding the fact that they are completely absent, for obvious reasons, from the OT (even the term and concept of SITH...at least on-screen). I'm considering here the SAGA perspective, like G. Lucas wants the films to be seen now. To me this fundamental gap is quite jarring. Probably because the OT came first and set the general tone, at least for people who saw them on first theatrical realease and re-saw them many times.
    On the other end, If you sort of ignore that SAGA point of view, and treat the series as 2 separate trilogies like I ended up doing, the problem largely smoothes off. Only remains screenplays, dialogues and execution.

    I too was kind of disappointed by Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship and friendship portrayal in the PT. Had Hoped for something else, more emotional and genuine on-screen. At least less frontal opposition and disagreement from AOTC.

    I do not share your point of view regarding L.Neeson's performance in TPM. Thinks he's quite good, especially in the Tatouïne scenes and intimate moments. Although like you said rather stoïc in general in the picture.
  14. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    I guess that's the purpose.
  15. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Even I agree with this. That's one of the reasons that I felt the story of the prequels could not possibly be told over a period of six hours. Too much to cover, including the depth of the Anakin/Obi-Wan friendship. We got a nice glimpse at the beginning of ROTS but that's pretty much it, and as you said, too much bickering in AOTC.

    I did think that the speeder chase was a good show of their friendship, in spite of the fact that they were sort of going at each other. But again, it's just one scene.

    I also agree regarding the "Chosen One" prophecy. That was my biggest WTF moment in the prequels (I had a few others, all within ROTS). There wasn't any real reason IMO to not simply make Anakin a very gifted Jedi.
  17. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    There is nothing wrong with that.
  18. obi-arin-kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2005
    star 3
    Huh? I'm confused.

    ...but this very notion is exactly why so many other established/talented directors look up to him.
  19. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    A lot of us expected the Republic, the Jedi Order, and Anakin's training to be portrayed as an ideal time that was corrupted by the dark side in some way. But that's not what the prequels are about. We're given a hypocrite's paradise where everything LOOKS pretty, but the structures themselves are too rigid and perfect to allow people to connect or be themselves at all. The Emperor wasn't any one place, he was EVERYWHERE and in everyone. And no, I don't mean everyone in Star Wars is possessed. Though, come to think of it, the Jedi claim to be servants of the Republic, and call each other Master...

    The Jedi are basically training each other to try to be something they aren't. Selfless, emotionless, super-intelligent, super-powerful monks - for the sake of the universe. [sarcasm]No, that's not self-important.[/sarcasm]Indeed, we expected Yoda, Anakin, and Obi-Wan to be victorious heroes in the PT at least SOMETIMES! Right? But they never are.
  20. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I agree with you, and I have no problem whatsoever with the portrayal of the Jedi as arrogant, dogmatic and (to a point) hypocritical. I actually like the fact that one of the elements leading to their downfall was their being completely--and purposely--out of touch with how normal people live. But I still didn't see the need to add a supernatural or divine element to Anakin's story. He could have simply been a strong Jedi who got disgusted with the Order and the Republic, as Dooku was.
  21. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    Am I the only one who finds Obi-Wan's fake beard in AotC the most annoying thing in the whole saga?
  22. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    I've never even noticed it.

    Which actually makes me sad.

    Given what a kaleidoscope of fakery AOTC actually is.

    Has anyone ever considered the PT, and especially AOTC (Attack of the Clones), as a cosmic game of "spot the difference"?

    Hey, kids! Sometimes, Obi-Wan has a fake beard. Sometimes, the scenery isn't real. Sometimes, that's not Christopher Lee!

    And OMG! Look at Anakin and Padme! They're walking between white (clone-like) pillars that match the movie's roman-numeral episode number! WHOA!

    * * *

    Plenty of cool stuff in this saga, methinks.
  23. CoolyFett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2003
    star 4
    "He was a good friend"

    Those two were together for 13 years and lost connect for 19 years. Im sure Obi Wan missed Anakin as a person. Obi Wan did care for Anakin. From the concerns of the dreams, to his relationship with Palps, to his relationship with Padme, Obi Wan didnt hate Anakin, he had big brother love for him. Their friendship started at Qui Gons funeral & ended in Mustafar. I will say that Obi Wan as a character was a lil too strict in AOTC and Anakin was a lil too bratty in AOTC. They should have scaled back in that movie.
  24. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    And...

    "Vader was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force."

    Cue Obi-Wan looking concerned.

    Vader wasn't seduced; Anakin was.

    And they were all "seduced", in part.

    "He was deceived by a lie. We all were."

    These people acted like machines and the Emperor singed all their circuits.

    ANH-Obi-Wan knows his words are tainted. Luke's father was a "good friend". And he wasn't.

    What happened, Obi-Wan? Palpatine happened. And a million other things.
  25. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2009
    star 3

    I guess the real issue, for many OT era fans especially, regarding Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship in the PT (especially AOTC), is that it is a very hierarchical one, like Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon in TPM actually. Leading sadly, with Anakin made as a brash and headstrong young person, to this frequent bickering in AOTC.

    Based on the OT, it was quite normal to expect a more equal partnership between the two. There are no such strict hierarchy and commanding in ANH between Ben and Luke, and even Between Yoda and Luke in ESB and ROTJ. They really seem more like friends than master/apprentice in these movies, although of course Luke is under tutelage.

    The fact that, originally, the age gap between Anakin/Vader and Obi-Wan was not supposed to be so wide (15 years) given how Sebastian Shaw looks in ROTJ, and therefore that Anakin was by many expected to be even older than Luke in the OT when starting is training, didn't help to envision such a kind of friendship/relationship that is portrayed in the PT.

    On the other end, How the Jedi knights were organized and proceeded in the backstory was mysterious and unaddressed. You could basically expect whatever.
    It was supposed to be another time.
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