What scenes do you find have less impact now that the PT has been released?

I wish people stood up and cheered when I watched it. I just heard histerical laughing, the kind of laughing you hear in a Jim Carey movie - who I dont think it funny btw. If Yoda had to fight, which I wouldn't have had him do so, I would rather seen him in a controlled fight as said above.

But Vader is a Sith, and a powerful one at that, so this scene works quite well. It really underscores the difference between Vader's skills and Luke's. I prefer to see consistency in the Force powers between the trilogies for comparison's sake.

I like to see consistencies aswell, otherwise it would end up looking like Star Trek. But I feel my main gripe with this scene is because the Jedi are made to look like super heroes in the PT. Binary Sunset started a great thread about how the Force has evolved throughout the movies. I've got to say that I agree with him on some things. The Jedi of the PT are running around at super-quick rates, their jumping hundreds of meters in the air and they are just generally made out to be superheroes. The OT, particularly ANH, showed the Jedi is a more 'respectable' light. They were far more human than what we are witnessing now. Old Ben didn't show us any levitation, so when we see Vader absolety kicks Lukes bum with it, I just felt amazed. Now that we see the superheroes of the PT, the image we got of the Jedi from the OT is degraded a little bit. They loose their spiritual and mythological feel about them. They still used Force levitation in the OT, same as Force jumping, but its not as extreme as the PT. I also understand that George wanted to show us what the Jedi were before their fall, but I felt that it could have been done differently, by showing the Jedi to more like Ben and Yoda, not like Luke's reckless ways.

I have also losed a bit of pity for the Jedi in the OT. When we heard Ben talk about how Vader wiped out the Jedi, I felt sorrow for the gaurdians of peace and justice being killed off so an evil regime could take hold. But the PT shows the Jedi as arrogant and cocky, and we start to get the opinion that they should fall, to allow a new, fresh, order to rise. I loose a bit of sympathy for the Jedi. Had the Jedi just been the tragic victims of an evil regime I would have still felt for Ben and Yoda being the only survivers of their order.

 

I saw AOTC 11 times in several different theatres and nobody ever laughed during the Yoda duel. [face_shocked] There were claps and a few cheers, but not laughter. People loved this battle, regardless of how we fans ultimately feel about the whole thing!

"Old Ben didn't show us any levitation, so when we see Vader absolety kicks Lukes bum with it, I just felt amazed"

So, if Jedi didn't do these things in the prequels you would be happy???? Then we would all be wondering why the heck Darth Vader can suddenly do them! There is no reason for Obi-Wan to be doing any of this in ANH, that is why you don't see it. Luke is untrained and/or being trained in TESB, that is why you don't see it. He isn't even fully trained in ROTJ. There are no Jedi presented in their hey-day in the OT, so of course you aren't going to see the amazing things that happened back when there was a whole temple teaching hundreds of Jedi from birth! The OT is a different era and the audience will be aware of it when watching the films.

"I loose a bit of sympathy for the Jedi. Had the Jedi just been the tragic victims of an evil regime I would have still felt for Ben and Yoda being the only survivers of their order"

I still have sympathy for Yoda and Ben, though for differing reasons now. They were good and wise in the PT also, but had become complacent to a degree. In the OT, they have learned a VERY valuable lesson and are intent on not repeating their past mistakes. I too thought highly of the Jedi, but now we see that they played a hand in their own fall. I like this aspect because it is something we did not see coming, something we did not expect, something fresh and new.

I will present you with one question The_Anakin_Wannabe, if the Jedi were as great as we thought in the OT then why have they been totally forgotten in the short time span of thirty years? The answer lies in the fact that their status in the Galaxy was already on a vast decline well before they actually realized it. Just look at the blatant disregard/disrespect they receive from various characters and races in Episodes 1 and 2; Watto, Gungans, Trade Federation, some of the populace of Coruscant such as the Dug that calls Obi-Wan Jedi Poo-Doo! There is a distict air that they are not THAT highly regarded by everyone! This explains their being totally forgotten in the OT days by most of the population, who was ready to forget them thirty plus years before with a little persuasion from a man called Sidious!

 

"Episodes 1 and 2; Watto, Gungans, Trade Federation, some of the populace of Coruscant such as the Dug that calls Obi-Wan Jedi Poo-Doo! There is a distict air that they are not THAT highly regarded by everyone! This explains their being totally forgotten in the OT days by most of the population, who was ready to forget them thirty plus years before with a little persuasion from a man called Sidious!"

I have to say I feel for T_A_W's view on this. Jamus, while I understand (and to some extent, agree with) what you are talking about, you have to keep a few things in mind.

Most opinions of Jedi from the general public on Tatooine are indifferent at best, because 1) it is a hiding place for bad guys and 2) the Jedi have no presence there (see #1 ). Gui-gon even stated that Anakin would have been overlooked had they not been forced to land there. The Trade Federation is a bunch of money-hungry vultures, so why would they have any love for the galaxy's "policemen". Hell, according to EU, they'll stab each other in the back, and I'm sure they wouldn't mind getting Sidious off their back also. I don't recall the head gungan's attitude to the Jedi, but Jar-Jar had obviously heard of them. Also, again, the Gungans didn't like the Nabooians(sp?) either, and preferred to keep their distance from anyone non-Gungan. Lastly, I'm not going to take one dug's opinion to account for all of Coruscant's opinion on the Jedi. Dug's are mean, plain and simple (and it may have been Sebulba's cousin, for all we know.)

I did have an interesting thought, though. In ANH, Tarkin talks of Vader's "ancient religion", and how he is the last. Considering that Tarkin's Empire helped to eradicate the Jedi, his attitude seems surprisingly reminiscent and respectful (though probably more towards Vader than the religion). When he says "You are all that is left...", he must be speaking about the Jedi religion, not the Sith!. Otherwise, he would know that Vader is a Sith (and would possibly know about Palpatine as well), and that that religion is still alive.

This leads me to believe that Tarkin, arguably the second-in-command in the Empire at that time, doesn't know the true religion and/or identity of Darth Vader or the Emperor. Of course, I've always believed that Palpatine keeps these identities secret. His greatest power lies in everyone else's confusion. Why give them more information than they need to know?

 

When I saw the movie, people were loud and rowdy during the Yoda scene. Stuff like "Hell yeah!!!" and "Uh-oh Dooku, you're in it now!!!"

It was amazing!

 

I agree with that, however I do not degrade them myself and I am not saying you have either The_Anakin_Wannabe but that is an interesting point you brought up.

 

I disagree with you about the asteroid chase. The asteroids that Han was facing were far more mobile. So they were harder to dodge. But fortunately, Han didnt have to deal with seismic charges. I can see where your coming from with your other points, but I think the scenes in which the PT makes the OT better far outwiegh the scenes in which they dont carry as much power.

 

So, if Jedi didn't do these things in the prequels you would be happy???? Then we would all be wondering why the heck Darth Vader can suddenly do them! There is no reason for Obi-Wan to be doing any of this in ANH, that is why you don't see it. Luke is untrained and/or being trained in TESB, that is why you don't see it. He isn't even fully trained in ROTJ. There are no Jedi presented in their hey-day in the OT, so of course you aren't going to see the amazing things that happened back when there was a whole temple teaching hundreds of Jedi from birth! The OT is a different era and the audience will be aware of it when watching the films.

I can understand that. But I think that its the superhereo Jedi of the PT that hurts this scene. We see Maul Force push Obi-Wan, we see Dooku fling objects at Yoda and it just ruins the ESB Vader/Luke scene. We saw levitition in ESB and it didn't have a negative effect on the scene. Vader totally shows Luke up, who struggles to pick up his saber. When Yoda lifts the X-Wing out of the swamp it was an amazing piece of cinema and I hope I'm not the only one here who thinks that. But this is another scene that doesn't seem as special as it did before the PT came out. I'm really finding it hard to explain myself here and with my current stress levels I'm finding it hard to concentrate so I hope somebody can help me out with what I'm trying to say

I will present you with one question The_Anakin_Wannabe, if the Jedi were as great as we thought in the OT then why have they been totally forgotten in the short time span of thirty years? The answer lies in the fact that their status in the Galaxy was already on a vast decline well before they actually realized it. Just look at the blatant disregard/disrespect they receive from various characters and races in Episodes 1 and 2; Watto, Gungans, Trade Federation, some of the populace of Coruscant such as the Dug that calls Obi-Wan Jedi Poo-Doo! There is a distict air that they are not THAT highly regarded by everyone! This explains their being totally forgotten in the OT days by most of the population, who was ready to forget them thirty plus years before with a little persuasion from a man called Sidious!

Propoganda helped the Jedi being forgotting as well as many other things. And the people who do not know about the Force and the Jedi are people born after the Purge, or are to young to remember it. General Dodonna and Admiral Ackbar are old enough to remember the Jedi and thus they wish the Force's assitance to each other before going into battle.

Police are not respected by everybody now either, which is sad. Jedi are, in a way, police officers. However it is easier to call the Force and the Jedi as a hoakey religion and crazy wizards because they have an ability that others do not.

 

"I think that its the superhereo Jedi of the PT that hurts this scene. We see Maul Force push Obi-Wan, we see Dooku fling objects at Yoda and it just ruins the ESB Vader/Luke scene. We saw levitition in ESB and it didn't have a negative effect on the scene. Vader totally shows Luke up, who struggles to pick up his saber. When Yoda lifts the X-Wing out of the swamp it was an amazing piece of cinema and I hope I'm not the only one here who thinks that. But this is another scene that doesn't seem as special as it did before the PT came out. I'm really finding it hard to explain myself here and with my current stress levels I'm finding it hard to concentrate so I hope somebody can help me out with what I'm trying to say"

I understand exactly where you are coming from The_Anakin_Wannabe, I just don't very much agree with you on every aspect of it. I guess there is simply no convincing one another on these issues seeing that they are a matter of opinion. The prequels happen to affect the scenes in the OT in a negative way for you and they do not for me. So be it!

1700th post!

 

Well, by the time Episode III comes out in 2005 the "No, I am your father!" scene will be completely ruined. It will look kinda stupid with all the dramatic music if the audience already knows the truth. Still Luke's reaction is always amusing.

 

Darth Jamus - I know what you're sayin' about the MDs. I had a HUGE debate in another thread about this awhile back.

I think (as I stated in that earlier thread) that Ep. III will somehow work MDs out of the Force. GL will find a way to explain them out of the story. Because Obi-Wan tells Qui-Gon "Not even Master Yoda has a midi cholorian count that high" so he obviously puts some stock in it? Or perhaps Yoda and Obi-Wan will say something like "We must go into hiding. When young Luke is old enough we will have to start the Jedi over, but this time we'll do it more as a religion, rather than a scientific thing"

Perhaps Lucas made the Force scientific in the PT just to add more debate to the whole science vs. religion thing??

dm

 

I understand exactly where you are coming from The_Anakin_Wannabe, I just don't very much agree with you on every aspect of it. I guess there is simply no convincing one another on these issues seeing that they are a matter of opinion. The prequels happen to affect the scenes in the OT in a negative way for you and they do not for me. So be it!

I wasn't trying to convince you, just to get my point across

 

My favorite scene "No I, am your father" is completely spoiled now.
And come to think of it, the whole Vader esence is spoiled.
Darth Vader no longer has that ultimate evil, all must fear impact, now that I've seen him as an annoying little slave in TPM.

 

Vader definately has a new look to him. I haven't yet decided whether its good or bad. I guess it comes down to personal choice: Whether you want Vader to be feared, or whether you want to sympathise with him. I was originally skeptical about how Vader would turn out with TPM, but now with AOTC I'm breathing easier. E3 will tell me what to think.

 

"the whole Vader esence is spoiled.
Darth Vader no longer has that ultimate evil"

Not that I don't understand the point you're making, but wasn't Vader's "essence" fundamentally changed, if not "ruined" in ESB with the "I am your father" line?

Don't get me wrong--this is a powerful scene, but when we first see Vader kneel in front of the Emperor, it's obvious that someone else is hold Vader's leash now. Clearly, Vader was no longer the "ultimate evil" at that point. "I am your father" merely cemented that fact. This is when we start to see some humanity in him, as we start to understand his motives.

 

I agree with a lot of you guys. But there's a simple solution.

When I have kids (which won't be for a loooooooooooooong time, lemme tell ya) and it comes time to show them the SW films (as every good parent should), rest assured they're not starting with Episode I. No way, the only way to really appreciate the films is to watch IV-VI, THEN I-III. The fact is, each film ups the ante too much. Anybody watching the PT will be so spoiled, they'll be snoozing through ANH. I'd like to think that the OT's vastly superior story/characters/everything else will still shine through even after the eye candy of the first three episodes, but let's face it...people are stupid. I've heard somebody say they didn't like Star Wars until they saw the SE, because "the special effects were better". Seriously.

People are stupid. I hope I've cleared that up.

Of course the prequel films help strengthen certain scenes in the OT. That's because WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. We can look at the prequel trilogy and see it for what it is: films that were made after the classic films, and therefore have more intense action (well, that's debatable, but I'm giving it the benefit of a doubt here), more advanced special effects, more complicated creatures, etc. etc. We can watch the prequels and see all the pieces falling into place, and it's brilliant in places where you can see Palpatine's machinations coming to fruition. The newbies though...they won't have that benefit. The younger ones will watch the prequels, be pumped up by them, and be let down by the CT. The older ones will watch the prequels, and not be able to get past Episode I. Cause unless you know what's REALLY happening in TPM, there's no damn point to the movie...and unfortunately, somebody walking into it without any prior knowledge of the other films won't know what Palpy/Sidious is up to. It defeats the whole purpose.

Watch the classic trilogy first, then the prequel trilogy, THEN you can watch it I-VI...that's the way to go. To quote Vader, "It is the only way".

 

"To quote Vader, "It is the only way"."

When you consider that the number of fans who have seen the films in OT-PT order vastly outnumber those who have seen it in PT-OT order, it is clearly a viable choice.

 

ratmankey. I couldn't agree with you more. The prequels enhance the original trilogy, but they are lacking if you have never seen the original episodes 4-6 first. Consider Obi-Wan's beautiful description of the Force in ANH in which he point blank explains what it is and where it comes from, as well as what it can enable one to do. The prequels lack ANY description of the Force, only references to it. TPM explains Midi-Chlorians, but that only lets us know that they communicate the will of the Force, giving no explanation of the Force itself. Newbies will be scratching their heads as to what all these strange powers that Jedi have are exactly, while being offered no good explanation till Episode 4. I guess it is just this mysterious Force that all the characters mention huh??

The Palpatine/Sidious connection will also mean little to nothing without prior knowledge of future events. Sure, the foreboding Emperor's Theme enforces the true evil of the hologram on the Trade Federation ship in TPM, as does the hooded outfit, but it will have little impact without knowing exactly who it ends up being. Just another villian eh????

The prequel trilogy is definitely made to be added to the existing trilogy and be watched consecutively from part 1 to part 6, but for first time viewers it will definitely benefit them to view the films in their original release date order instead! I do not think the prequels diminish the originals at all. My statements simply reflect the lack of information presented in the prequels that would enable them to be stand alone films themselves, therefore making them inadequate first installments to the SW universe!