What the hell is going on??

Discussion in 'Scifi 3D Forum' started by George Mezori SCIFI 3D, Aug 5, 2004.

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  1. George Mezori SCIFI 3D Scifi 3D Forum

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    I think the very first message I posted already stated most of what types of threads we're talking about here. And alot of those are still allowed but just not in the main area. What we want #1 is good work. Or something that will help people make good work is ok too. But really... unless you have a very specific question you should go to SCIFI-MESHES for all your learning needs. LIke... hey Dr.Jones how did you get that specularity setting in MAX on that armor? Not hey... I don't know how to make a character can you help... or hey can you just make it for me, etc. 99% of this stuff we don't want anymore is just like that. It's not a specific technical question. It's a very open-ended question masquerading as a request. Or it's just a silly question that is so basic it's a "take me by the hand" and show me question. People gotta help themselves more. Practice, read, buy a book, whatever... and save your questions just for the good ones. The rest of it is common-sense too. No model requests in the main area.. no where is this where is that... no more which app is better crap... etc. I try to fill the FAQ with everything I can so these people can just be told to read the FAQ. But they'll either not read it or it just won't cover everything.

    Like everybody else has said... and the one thing we do all agree on... this forum is not equipped to handle this situation in a way that is satisfactory to everybody. So people will just have to make due.
  2. fireresq7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2002
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    No, I don't. That's why I asked. I am not a stupid person, but I find your intentions for your forum very ill defined.

    At the end Zoo has the right to do what he thinks is best for the forum and he has basically been running this thing for a loong time. And if anyone should know what is better for it I guess he would. Now we are all expressing our opinions...but at the end that is all it is...our opinions. Zoo will ultimatley get his way so let's not fight it guys, just make helpful suggestions. Because I don't know about you but when someoen gets under my skin I will try very hard NOT to do what they want!!!

    This whole thing reminds me of when we were pushing people to start using credits on images, animations, etc. People were so used to not doing it they fought it tooth and nail. But it was a community-wide effort to change this or authors were gonna stop sharing stuff.
    Zoo I think like you said, we are all just used to having certain things our way, so in this case we are usedto having the FREE right to ask away and get a quick response by making our own request thread.

    ~Rory
  3. George Mezori SCIFI 3D Scifi 3D Forum

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    I don't think making a "noobs needing help" sticky is a good idea. For many reasons. Besides.. I don't really care to see silly questions anywhere. I'm always gonna be open minded to suggestions tho. But I have to tell you... we're very limited on what we can do. And I'm totally inflexible on allowing people to post whatever they want wherever they want.
  4. G-Unit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2004
    star 4
    I think what rory is trying to suggest is that since newbies do come to this forum in search of help, that it would be nice to have a group of animators who monitor that thread so they can actually help and that gets rid of the stupid posts.
  5. George Mezori SCIFI 3D Scifi 3D Forum

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    Like he also said... the "REQUESTS" thread is good for that. You can put any kinda request you want in there. Anything.... within reason. If you're looking for SW toys look on EBAY. We all shouldn't be forced to wade through that stuff if we don't want to tho.
  6. ScaPaCamem Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2003
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    What we want #1 is good work. Or something that will help people make good work is ok too.

    So what your saying is that unless your work is good you do not want people posting. Wow. That is a terrible idea. How can they improve? And please don't say go post it at CGchannel and see what they say, because that is why I liked this forum because I could come here without getting told my work was awful. People would help me. Now you have turned it into a place where people are going to be scared to come to. :claps:
  7. George Mezori SCIFI 3D Scifi 3D Forum

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    That's just silly. We could argue about this all day like this. I think everybody, even you, know exactly what I'm talking about. And I already said earlier that this isn't CGchannel, CGtalk, etc. and we're not trying to be. There are plenty of places out there to post beginner stuffs and ask for help on it. I don't know why people would want to come here anyway. There's very few people here. You use BRYCE you said. There are a ton of Bryce sites out there that can actually help you learn that app. Andrews site even is specifically a SW bryce site. I think it's in the links section. The whole purpose of this site was just as a support site for SF3D. Then people started posting some good stuff that ended up on the site. That was nice. That's what it's supposed to be for. You guys can do whatever you want in those sticky threads. I do not want the main area flooded with a bunch of nonsense that's all. Try not to take it personal and see it for what it is. People can still talk about stuff in the stickies but the main area needs to be cleaned up a bit. Maybe I'll get rid of some of those old stickies too.
  8. darthviper107 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2003
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    Well, I agree mostly with Zoo, this isn't really a learning forum. It's trying to be more like CGtalk, but more related to Sci-Fi stuff than just CG in general. But, it's kind of hard to get it that way since there aren't many people who go here that can do stuff independently like on CGtalk. It's probably mostly because this forum is on the TFN forums and there are so many new people there that they see this forum and expect they can learn everything like they would in the other forums, like the Fanfilms forum.
    We just need more people here that have good skills and would like to share with us the stuff they are doing.
  9. George Mezori SCIFI 3D Scifi 3D Forum

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    Well... I think you are diluting my comments now a bit. We're not like CGtalk, nor are we trying to be. Why don't we say... as far as artwork goes... it has to be something that can possibly be hosted. That way it has something to do with SF3D... and at the same time defines the forum a bit so it's not open to a "teaching" learning center. Especially since SF3D is not the right place to do that. There's not that many people here and there are other places like that out there. I encourage you guys to visit places like SFM. They advertise the fact that they are a peer review/support forum. If you don't feel, as one person said, they can post there without being laughed at then why would it be ok to post something like that here?

    Yea we need more good people... but places like SFM are so well established... we'll never be able to compete with them no matter what kinda forum we have. Why try? That's why I've actively advertised to people to go there for peer review/support. If you have something really good and are looking for a more professional/commercial self-promotion then CGtalk is good. I think the purpose and goal of each place is obvious. And with silly posts... we'll never attract anything but more silly posts. And to give Scapaman? a little credit... actual work is a helluva lot better than a request. This place is definitely not a clearing house for unemployed pros looking to work on some 15 yr.olds fan film. I think these people should find somebody who lives close to them and tell them you'll cut their grass every week for the rest of the year if they help you for 100's of hours. That's how much work this stuff is.
  10. Ulric Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
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    2c: I understand the motivation behind the moderation on the forum,
    however I was surprised to see this happen because I saw the volume of messages on this message board to be very low and under control, and Bryce threads are easy to ignore (for people who do not want to read them, I mean). Threads with names like "3D WIP" should be renamed to something more descriptive, however.
  11. ScaPaCamem Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2003
    star 4
    What was the point of saying yea Bryce threads are easy to ignore? O sorry I don't have a great program like you. And how can I be more descriptive. Maybe 3D WIP right here. it is done in bryce. It is for my fanfilm. Nope 3D wip is just fine. Thats my 2cents
  12. PapaFett Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 2
    Whoa... I leave for a few days and the place falls apart... =D

    I would pretty much like to stay out of this but I think things are way outta hand now, I don't like the way things have been going here for quite a while, and that's on both sides of the fence.

    There have been a ton of n00b questions... many of which were completely out of place and some that were not so bad. It has been aggravating, but there was a time when I was asking stupid (or is that stupider) questions.

    Equally or more aggravating has been the constant lockdown tho. Just let them go... people who want to answer will, people who don't just move on... it's just like any system, there is a point of equilibrium.

    Right now there is so much tension that I'm afraid to offer help when I can, cause I feel like I get my knuckles smacked with the ruler.

    I dunno, I know there is no uber WIP's by me (that you all have seen) so this may not be a big deal, but I'm starting to lose interest in this place at all. To much tension, too little love.
  13. George Mezori SCIFI 3D Scifi 3D Forum

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    Well... I think maybe it was just poorly worded. I don't think he means to say Bryce sucks and is to be ignored. There are alot of cool Bryce images at Andrews SW site... not to mention I just added one to our own gallery. BUT I think what he's trying to say is for people who aren't interested in Bryce, Blender, etc. they can't filter out those threads with a title like 3D WIP. Personally... I don't care as long as it's good. Don't forget the Jedi Hallway that was done in Bryce last year. With a place like SFM where a forum is really large it may help to sift through all the threds with better subject lines.

    People can talk all they want... just not in the main area any more. I'm not gonna just let people do what they want. Sorry that the stickies don't allow sub-threads but there's nothing I can do about it. ]

    I think all changes come with some pain. So it's completely normal.
  14. fireresq7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2002
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    I'm not gonna just let people do what they want.

    Um...ok. Zoo I don't think people are doing this to piss you off. I think they are just really asking questions. And I'm sure they are doing it because of past practice which never had any repercussions. I know you are the man in charge here but instead of treating this forum as a dictatorship, ask everyone for suggestions and solutions so everyone is content...including yourself Zoo.

    ~Rory
  15. George Mezori SCIFI 3D Scifi 3D Forum

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    Sorry it doesn't work that way. I've always said SCIFI 3D belongs to us all. It's not my site. It belongs to the community. But unfortunately every decision can not be a public debate. Somebody just needs to make the right decisions. Stuff like this... would just be an endless debate and nobody would be happy. As soon as you guys make the necessary adjustments... and any suggestions that you think might make it better... we can all get back to business.
  16. fireresq7 Jedi Master

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    Oct 24, 2002
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  17. fireresq7 Jedi Master

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    Oct 24, 2002
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    I just noticed something that I'm sure you know. In the request thread everybody asks asks asks what they want and no one is really listening to other people's requests. It's like posting a request, and being ignored.

    ie: "yeah hi I was wondering if you guys can make a Rancor"
    response:" yeah hey can someone make me a car?"

    Now after that, the first guys request is forgotten.

    I just don't like the idea of the request thread because I am one of those little guys that is constantly looking for help making stuff, but now I have to be afraid to post a request, and then post it in the "endless pit" thread. So now when I post it there I know it will never get answered!Because noone reads other peoples requests, just their own.


    And so far I have gotten alot of help from people for my film...not from the request thread but from making my own.And I mean alot of help! Because of them I have a really good rope model, an awesome rancor rigged model, some KOTOR models, and a spiderman on the way.

    Now why is that SOOOO BAD!?Besides the fact that YOU just don't like it.


    ~Rory

    EDIT:
    I also found a link to an NS-5 model from I, Robot and I was gonna share it, but you already locked that thread.


  18. George Mezori SCIFI 3D Scifi 3D Forum

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    I thought we were done debating this??

    How do you know what the statistics are on who reads Requests threads, who responds, etc.? No matter what they are it's irrelevant anyway. The Requests thread is operating just the way it should. People are supposed to read it and contact the poster outside the forum or via the PM system. You're not supposed to carry on a long conversation there. It's like running a help wanted ad in the newspaper. PLUS.. we've already had somebody here in this thread say they have answered those Requests. Personally... along with probably 99% of the other people here out of the total # of visitors... I don't read it myself very often. Why? Because like 99% of the other people I'm not interested nor have time to fill any requests. So why should we all have to wade through a sea of requests just b/c a few people don't want to post there.

    You guys... to me what you are doing is technically SPAMMING the forum. You're trying to say you have something to advertise and you want to get the most views possible so it's ok for you to spam the forum. Also like I've already said... I myself put out requests at other forums and I have to follow the same rules. So tough noogy. Now if you don't feel like you are getting enough replies... why you would expect it at such a small place as this is "beyond me"... then maybe that's telling you something. Nobody here is interested maybe? Try your request at some other places. Don't use it as a valid argument to post where you want.

    That thread was close , I think, b/c it was a request that was going nowhere anyway. If you have something to share and you feel it's a "VALID" thread I'm sure you'd post it or you could just share and send the link to me via email and I'd look into it. Using the clout of SCIFI 3D it helps me talk and negotiate things with other artists. But again.. don't try and use this as some valid argument to post where you want.
  19. fireresq7 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think we post stuff to SPAM anything...I think people really just wanna ask questions.


    ~Rory

    EDIT: You are right...(Retracted)sorry Zoo just a little upset

    PS
    Check your PM
  20. George Mezori SCIFI 3D Scifi 3D Forum

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    See... this is the sorta conduct that will get you banned. Don't be rude and disrespectful to anybody here.. especially me. I think I'm being fair by spending what... hours explaining myself and talking with people. I could do like a SFM news announcement on SCIFI 3D about forum changes and that's it. Done. If you feel angry and frustrated take it out on something else. Take a shovel and go outside and smack a tree or something.
  21. Jyro-Kyrn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2002
    star 4
    So, does this mean that it is only appropriate to post threads that have nearly complete WIPs or finished art?

    Or only art that the regulars care about?

    Must it be specifically SCI FI? (I would assume so, but where does the line get drawn? Superheros, etc???)

    It seems that any WIP thread should be acceptable, even if it is nothing more than concept art that the artist will be working from. If it shows progress then people will care. I know you killed SpaCa whatever's thread because it took a wrong turn. But sometimes someone catching a primitives construction error can save many hours of UV mapping and texturing problems. I would suggest that if you are doing a WIP then post from day one and take advantage of the input of others. It worked for Greivous.

    I know that this forum cannot be everthing to everyone. But what is it supposed to BE? A place to grow and learn? Then you have to allow noobs to post noob questions and primitive works. CGTalk has a sticky and kills threads about which app to use. Good, that's nice. We do the same here. But if you post a really crappy image at CGTalk you are either going to get ignored or raked over the coals! But not by the MODS! By the community. If the community wants to care, they will. If not, it will vanish. Mind you, on CGTalk you can vanish within a few minutes of posting. Here it takes longer.

    If all it is going to be is a place to critique and show off nearly complete works that only have to do with SCI-FI then so be it.

    Zoo, you said that you don't mind if the board goes quiet. Well, that's a curse on the Internet. If the board is quiet, then who will continue watching so that when a new piece of art is posted they will critique it? If this place is quiet, then it will eventually die. If it doesn't build up and promote younger artists to be better artists, then it will die. If it is a place where only the elite artists have anything worth sharing, they WON'T do it here! They'll go where the prestige is higher, like CGTalk. Not on some obscure board that everyone stops watching because nothing happens...

    It can be really hard to get input in this small group. It can be impossible to get input in a forum as large as CGTalk. At least here you don't get bashed for doing something Star Wars!

    I'm sorry. I just have one single question that I need an answer to:

    What is this purpose of this forum?

    The honest answer to that question will determine it's value to each of us individually.

    It would SEEM to have to become a place for the skilled to show off and nothing more. If that is the case, then okay. That's what the powers that be dictate, ok. There are more nurturing places to go. And the cobwebs on this site may begin to grow.

    I challenge you, Zoo, to take a step back and consider whether alienating a large number of future skilled artists is such a great long term strategy for this board?

    Edit:
    All the new sticky threads - I agree.
    End Edit:

    Request sticky thread - I agree.
    Which App stick thread - I agree.
    Web Site Promotion sticky thread - I agree.
    Tutorials sticky thread - I agree.
    Delete the new threads and re-direct the poster to the appropriate sticky.

    But the how would you approach this, Here is my really cheesy peice of noob work, etc, threads need to stay. It's what makes it a community and not a commune.

    I'm not attacking you, Zoo. I'm just suggesting that you think long term about why this board is here and what you want it to be. And yes, it is YOUR board and not ours. You have the reigns. What you says goes. This isn't a democracy. But you may not have anything to moderate after a while.

    Just my $4.58...
  22. Jedi2016 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2000
    star 4
    I think the big problem with these boards is the lack of options.. we have just this ONE forum to use for EVERYTHING. There's just no room for a lot of the stuff that occupies other forums.

    As I understand it, this forum is largely a support forum for the Sci-Fi 3D website, and the content hosted therein. Nothing more. There are PLENTY of other, much more capable, CGI forums out there where new users can learn. Places like Sci-Fi Meshes, LightWave Group, etc. Those two are perfect because they're not massive, twenty-thousand-member forums like CGTalk, yet they're large enough to support a wide user-base, as well as having proper facilities to deal with questions and general CGI support. This place just isn't equipped to deal with that sort of thing the way those other forums are. In order for this forum to be large enough to support what all the users think it is, it would have to move OFF of the TFN servers to it's own server, with it's own modern-day forum software.

    The only downside of the larger forums is that they have even less tolerance for stupid questions than we do here. If you ask a question on SFM that can be answered in a minute on Google or in the software manual, you WILL get hammered, and hammered hard. Ask intelligent questions, on the other hand, and you'll get more help than you could ever want. Largely because of the larger user-base. Where there are dozens of high-end CG artists hanging around instead of only two or three.
  23. George Mezori SCIFI 3D Scifi 3D Forum

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    Well... this is definitely not a big CGI site so we can't support everybody's WIP's. Technically the SF3D content is TV/FILM properties and some original work that is related. So the forum is the same. That doesn't really solve the problems tho. There are examples of orginal work on the site so I think we can use that as a guide to what is acceptable. If anything the standards are probably higher for original stuff. I see really good stuff everyday but we just can't deal with everything.. so the content has to be limited ... on the site and forum. It should be good also... whether it's original or not. It's just too small of a place for people to flood it with all their WIP's. That's what SFM is for. You could technically go there and I'll see it or tell me about it and if it's kool it can be added to the SF3D WIP section. Doesn't have to be in this forum at all. I even link WIP's to their forum threads too. So to answer the question... as long as it's good it's good. And I think we all know what the standards are here. Practice and render images of practice work on your own. Nobody really wants to see really simple primatives and stuff. But there's plenty of people here who can help with how to bevel, add details, etc. And don't forget SCIFI-MESHES.

    I think this answers your question about content too.

    Look. Every place has it's own standards ok. I don't know who said or how it became to be a place for beginner and noob work? But that's not what it is. It's too small of a place for it to be a WIP forum of any quality. There are plenty of places to post all your tests, even if they're simple... Renderosity, etc. Everybody kinda has their own standards. The level of work we done you wouldn't see on some Poser forum would you? And vice-versa. So lets stop using bad examples to drag the debate on and on. I think everybody here honestly knows what our standards are... and where we fit in the 3D community.

    The forum can be something different to everybody. It all depends on what you take from it, or what you are given, etc. Not it's not supposed to be a learning center... but it could be to somebody. I'm sure it has.

    Honestly... I think people look around and get a feel for a place before they post. Nobody wants to be "raked" so we all have a good feel for each site. You know what you can do at each place. That doesn't mean you can go to CGtalk and dumb it down tho. They have their standards too. They have a good system b/c they don't need to debate with people like this. It takes care of itself. Here.. I have to defend the standards or it could turn into a noob forum very easily. Anybody could take over this forum if they were allowed. A 100 Blender users could come here and turn it into a Blender WIP forum. YES?? If I didn't defend the forum. But I think we all know what every forum is geared for. Some of you guys are trying to blur these lines.

    Yea... it is a SCIFI site yes... "SCIFI" 3D... but it doesn't have to be completed work. I think people should gear anything they share publicly towards... could it be on SCIFI 3D, is it good enough?? Otherwise why post it here?

    When I look at all the threads that come and go... I think people want to see the same things I want to see. Good work. That's what will be the main composition of traffic here. Nobody wants to see garbage. Noobs can share that stuff in a noob forum or privately. Everybody starts off at the bottom... and I understand the desire to share (I mean that's what makes SCIFI 3D run.. the participation). But we all don't want to visually see every step in your learning journey. At least not here. I don't think the standards here are really that high. We about like SFM.

    This place is and always has been a ground for up-and-coming artists. They all start off at the bottom. But you should have more pride than wanting to show something that is bad.

    I think I already addressed the purpose of this place in this thread.

    I don't really have any comment on the last 1/2 of your
  24. George Mezori SCIFI 3D Scifi 3D Forum

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    I completely agree with Jedi2016. Well said. Maybe it'll help if somebody else says stuff like this instead of me. Too many skeptics about anything I say. One thing to remember is... there are people like 12 to 45 in this community. So it's harder to get along. What an experienced 15 yr. old thinks is a good question... even a beginner at 35 yrs. old may think is dumb. You guys do need to work out your own answers more. If you really do your homework and runs tests and practice... when it comes time to ask for help you will have a much better question trust me. It'll be much more specific and actually intelligent and thoughtful. Too much... tell me how to do this, how to do that, show me where this is, etc.

    SFM and LWG are much better at handling peer review and support. And I think this forum has really turned out kool too. When I think back on all the threads everywhere that fall within our content... I think our teeny tiny little forum here has had just about as much good work shared than anywhere else. It has attracted alot of good threads.
  25. Jyro-Kyrn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2002
    star 4
    Zoo, your second post up from this one answers the issue quite eloquently. I buy that explanation.

    So, come on, people. Let's see some good work!
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