Lit What the kark happened to Daala and Lecersen?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Revanfan1, Sep 15, 2013.

  1. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Where'd they go after Vitor Reige won the election in Apocalypse? Lecersen was one of the few non-Skywalker characters I found half tolerable in FOTJ, and I want Daala confirmed dead ASAP. What happened? [face_dunno]
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  2. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    Daala pissed off the gods of the galaxy, thus can never die and never be written out of continuity until 7 generations of SW fans have endured the pestilence of her inclusion!
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  3. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
  4. The Compeer Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2013
    star 2
    Maybe Luke dies sacrificing himself to finally rip Daala out of the timestream, similar to what Empatajayos Brand did to Palpatine? [face_thinking]
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  5. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Nah, Luke doesn't need to do that. On the other hand, if Saba Sebatyne sacrificed herself to get rid of Daala forever... ;)
  6. son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 7, 2003
    star 4
    No, that would make far too many happy in more than one way. Clearly the only way to truly rid the fandom of Daala's insanity is some sort of "give and take." What would we part with, that we were otherwise unwilling to do so?
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  7. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    I'd sacrifice, oh...I don't know. Daala's a blight, but she's a generally harmless blight; she hasn't really done any harm to any protagonist in anything she's appeared in ever. There's no reason to kill off a well-loved character to get rid of a nuisance.
  8. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    You'd think a character as well-loved as Daala would die of disease but I suppose she takes precautions.
  9. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    Agreed, so let's have an awfully written character killed off to take care of said nuisance. I vote Ben Skywalker.
  10. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    No. If there is one thing about LOTF-FOTJ I will forever defend it is Ben Skywalker. Sure, he was an idiot in the first three LOTF books, but after that he wised up and he's been great since then. Any other flaws in his writing (such as not having a foil character) are the fault of the writers. No, keep Ben as he is. Or better, improve him. He has the potential to be a great character–he could, if written right, be the best character to take over as a protagonist–but he just needs a little work.
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  11. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    I'd say he needs a lot of work that the writers don't look like they're willing to put in. Though if I remember correctly he was supposed to appear in Jaina's Sword of the Jedi trilogy.
  12. LightsaberAccident Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 2013
    star 1
    I'm really glad you asked this question. I thought about bringing it up in a big "loose threads from FOTJ" topic but you saved me the trouble. I haven't read Crucible but I get the impression it doesn't elaborate on the situations of Daala or Lecersen. Daala is probably busy doing what she does best: losing crews and spaceframes in ill advised battles.

    We know Lecersen was sweet-talked into supporting Daala by Abeloth, but I gather that is the last time he appears in any of the books?

    And what is the status of the rest of the Moffs? That once scene when a certain Jedi confronts Abeloth, we see that Abeloth has these weird caricatures of several of Daala's supporters floating around her. I assumed it was entirely symbolic at the time and merely for propaganda purposes, but is it possible Abeloth, uh, subsumed those Moffs for her purposes? If so, it would be a pretty big political hammer to the Imperial leadership. I guess I don't understand exactly what was happening in that scene.
  13. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    Almost everything post-NJO needs a lot of work.

    Anyway, Daala and Lecerson's continuing survival is why I have almost no respect left for post-NJO novels. Daala's sudden ascension to Chief of State at the end of LotF was bad enough, but then she gets off completely free at the end of FotJ. Whatever happened to villains getting their just desserts? Then again, the novels seem more interested in heaping tragedy and angst on the protagonists than anything else while everybody else gets off easy.

    Even at the end of LotF, Lecerson wasn't so bad in terms of being necessary to keep the Imperial Remnant under control, but after FotJ, he should be thrown in prison or killed in battle or something. Its the novels' complete disconnect from being able to write a decent conclusion that kills off my interest. I don't think even Mercy Kill mentioned what happened to those two (did it? I mostly remember them dealing with yet more corrupt/evil GA officers... they should just rename the Galactic Alliance to Galactic Empire so they don't have to keep jumping through hoops to justify the Jedi fighting the galactic government again and again).

    Heck, I might have preferred to hear about trials for all the idiots who worked for Daala or Treen or Lecerson at the end of FotJ rather than briefly seeing Jaina's wedding. But then ending with a wedding makes it easier to pretend its a happy ending, and its not really what I'd call a better galaxy (something TUF accomplished but LotF and FotJ spectacularly failed at).
  14. LightsaberAccident Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 2013
    star 1
    What did happen to Treen? Through Mercy Kill we know that at least some GA officials, if not the general public, are aware there was a conspiracy, even if they are in the dark as to its scope and key members. That book did seem to indicate that Treen was a known plotter, and I figure Bwu'atu would want justice served on one of the people who had conspired to kill him.

    I'd figure for his role in the conspiracy, and for supporting Daala, Lecersen would at least be censured by the new Head of State. He had a critical role in trying to overthrow two legitimate governments, and I got the impression that Moff Disra from the Zahn books got punished pretty severely for crimes of a similar scale.
  15. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    I like to think that Disra was exiled from the Empire and dumped on Wayland. Where the Empire-hating Noghri now live.

    Alternatively, he was just placed under permanent house arrest on Bastion, and died when the Vong burned it to the ground.
  16. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Ben would have worked better if he wasn't a Jedi, or started from a position of rejecting his birthright. That's why they went with Cade in Legacy. It's the refusal of the call, and it allows for character growth into the hero.

    Ben doesn't grow into anything, he is what he is by default. He is stuck under Luke's shadow, and he always will be, because he's nothing more than Luke, less than Luke, and they don't have the ambition of writing him to be anything different. He will always pale in comparison to his father as a character, because he's not anything different.

    I'd say it's as much a problem with plotting the character as it is with the Jedi overall being "Jedi and only Jedi," as that is the direction Denning took it in Dark Nest and the way it has been stuck since.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 15, 2013
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  17. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Well...that's your opinion and I'll respect it. Still, I feel Traviss (LOTF) and Allston (both LOTF and FOTJ) did a great job making Ben a believable character. Golden seemed content to just sit back and roll with it, more concerned with Vestara and Wynn Dorvan and Pocket, though she did Ben justice in some parts of Ascension (battle on Dromund Kaas, for starters)...and we all know Denning doesn't give a flip about character development as opposed to "things happening." But Ben felt like a real character in 2/3rds of LOTF and at least 1/2 of FOTJ. Denning, though...well, meh. I haven't read Crucible so I don't know about him there; all I know is if Allston wrote a Ben Skywalker book (or if, by some miracle, they could get Traviss back to do it), or if Matt Stover did it...I wouldn't hesitate to read it, maybe even buy it in hardback. I really do enjoy Ben's character quite a lot, personally.

    But that's beside the point. The implied thought that Abeloth absorbed Daala's supporters (and thus, possibly Lecersen) is very chilling, but I could totally see Cop-Out Denning doing it so he didn't have to come back to Lecersen later. I really do want to find out what happened to him...General Stavin Thaal's appearance in Mercy Kill as the antagonist was quite pleasing as he seemed to have potential in FOTJ (how did he survive an assassin's slash across his throat? Must be a bad dude!), but I miss finding out about Lecersen and Treen (though I found most of the Lecersen Conspiracy portions of FOTJ to be dreadfully boring despite the few good characters in the group), and despite that one old dude having a hatred of aliens, I felt bad when Treen poisoned him in Ascension (mostly because his oldness was amusing).

    Now Allston needs to write a book with Jag and Jaina as the protagonists hunting down Lecersen and Daala, with a sideplot about Ben using his GAG skills to team up with Wraith Squadron to find Treen! That would be a book!
  18. Jeff_Ferguson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2006
    star 4
    Complete, 100% agreement here. Daala's ascension to Chief of State will assuredly go down in history as the most laughably preposterous idea in the history of the EU, but her fate at the end of FOTJ is just as sigh-worthy in its own way.

    At the end of Book 9, she's a wanted criminal in the Galactic Alliance, and someone who attempted to assassinate the Imperial Head of State. Logic dictates she should be locked away for life somewhere, but since logic is something that never permeated a single page of FOTJ, she instead gets a chance to be elected Imperial Head of State and, by all appearances, gets off scot-free after losing the election.

    Sigh...
  19. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    How is she supposed to come back as the head of the Chiss Ascendancy if her fate is resolved guys?
  20. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    In a way, this is why I like Traviss' depiction of Ben–he gets to do his GAG thing in addition to the Jedi thing. However, at least they still kept mentions of his investigative skills in FOTJ–something that stands out. However, I do like his depiction in FOTJ; how when Gavar tries to turn Ben to the dark side, it makes him fight harder–Luke always fought hard against the dark side, but I can't say that someone who tried to turn him made him fight harder. Also, there's his eidetic memory and his...unique...sense of humor make him stand out from Luke. And it's possible that Crucible did one good thing–introducing Omad Kaeg, a possible buddy and foil for Ben in future stories.

    No. No, no, no, no, nonononono.

    [IMG]
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  21. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    To be fair, there's nothing wrong with Jedi as a vocation.
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  22. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Sure, if they're characterized. Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker, Qui-Gon Jinn, and Yoda are distinct characters. There's nothing to make Ben distinct from Luke besides his stint in the GAG -- which is something entirely outside his vocation as a Jedi.

    Edit: Let me rephrase that -- there's nothing interesting to make Ben distinct from his father.

    Yes, it's a simple fact that it's a nearly insurmountable task to make Luke's son as interesting a character as Luke, but just making him a Jedi by default with a subdued personality is definitely not the way to go about doing it.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 15, 2013
  23. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Eh, you CAN'T make someone more than Luke Skywalker because he's one of the most recognizable characters in fiction and the inspiration for all Jedi everywhere.

    Ben being the Plucky Heir is appropriate in that respect.
  24. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Cade Skywalker would be more appropriate. And I don't like Cade -- but the fact is, you're not going to make Luke's son more interesting as a Jedi Knight than Luke, so why try? Make him into something different. That alone propels his arc, especially if it results in conflict with his father. And I don't mean Darth Caedus conflict, I mean the standard daddy issues conflict that drives a lot of fiction. It doesn't have to be Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker -- it can be pretty much every character on Lost.
  25. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Well, why does Ben's distinctness have to revolve entirely around his Jedi-ness? I mean, Luke wasn't a Jedi first and foremost for the first years of his Rebel Alliance service. Ben's GAG stint is the equivalent of Luke's Rogue Leader stint. They both did something distinctly non-Jedi and came away with skills they could use later on to enhance their Jedi skills. Now, I will say that Ben as a Jedi hasn't been expounded on–Ben as a person has; his spite for the dark side and his interesting sense of humor–aside from his relative power levels (the ability to create a Force push that would've knocked a frigate out of orbit, taking on several Sith at one time by himself), but that's more because it seemed that for FOTJ, almost no one knew what they were actually trying to accomplish–and it seemed to me that the goal at the start (when there were still goals and the books were still relatively good) was to expound upon Ben and Luke's relationship as father and son rather than Grand Master and Jedi Knight. In the future (assuming there will be future stories told in this continuity), I expect Ben's Jedi-ness to be expounded upon more.