What to do about illegal immigration: Debate and Discussion

The chances of a legitimate asylum case coming through the border are a bit slim.

 

Well, you'd know better than I but we get it often, that people are legit and come here illegally - I don't know if the row between us and Indonesia made the news over some West Papuans?

J-Rod, I really don't know, and that's mainly because I know little US law. I suspect the Feds aren't stupid enough to hang themselves, but I couldn't tell you why I think that.

E_S

 

The Minutemen are exposing the hypocrisy and ineffectiveness of the feds. They're basically making Homeland Security look incompetent.

What kills me is that the media makes a HUGE deal over the wiretapping of people talking to terrorists shortly afer 9/11, but when the government spies on law-abiding citizens whose aim is to protect this country..not a peep. The Minutemen continue to be vilified. This is analogous to the mayor of your town reporting the activities of a neighborhood watch to the local crackhouse.

Now the Pentagon is considering placing the military at the border. Sounds like the usual lip service.

 

I don't really care what they claim their aims are. They're an international incident waiting to happen, and coordination between the two governments involved is really the wisest course of action. It's a somewhat tense, complex situation between two countries that do a lot of business together. The last thing either country needs is a bunch of self-appointed yahoos screwing things up.

I can't see any legal reason why they would be required to, but I also can't see any legal reason why the Federal government would be prohibited from doing so if they so choose, and it makes good sense from a policy perspective for the reasons I stated above.

 

They're an international incident waiting to happen, and coordination between the two governments involved is really the wisest course of action.

There are a couple of problems with this great big long line of BS.

1) International due to a foriegn invasion on American soverienty.

2) It is their duty to prevent an international incident by keeping their citizens from invading our nation.

3) It is not our governments place to make protecting our own nation more difficult.

4) The only coordination involved between our two governments has been to make illegal crossing as easy and safe as possible.

Like I said, there is something going on that we aren't aware of. It's become too blatant to be just about cheap labor or unreturnable Social Security collections.

Our own government seems to be stating loud and clear that illegal border crossers aren't to be impeded, either by civilian monitoring or law enforcement.

 

J-Rod, at the end of the day I can't, due to my cultural upbringing, see the Minutemen as anything less than vigilantes - blame my superior British cultural heritage, if you must!

E_S

 

Understandable given the misleading press they are recieving. But lemme ask you this: Is a neighborhood watch vigilantism? Or how about when you see a burgler break in to your next door neighbor's house and you call the cops?

 

If the minutemen were just tattletales, then certainly I would support them.

 

I think at first the Minutemen had a great potential for picking up nutjobs and general wackos but after getting as much attention as they have, I have read that they are being very choosy and running background checks on anyone planning on joining. They don't want one lone nutjob ruining what they see as a good organization.

I think if they were true vigilantes, they would be taking the "law" into their hands and actually turning people away or using their weapons. But so far, all of the allegations that they abused people or denied people their rights have been utterly debunked. I think people are coming to realize these are just folks sitting in lawn chairs acting as human scarecrows to keep people from crossing. They aren't detaining anyone or sending anyone home. They are calling Border Patrol when they see illegal activity and illegal border crossings.

I do not think it is wrong for local citizens to get together and basically start what amounts to a neighborhood watch with guns. The only reason they have the guns is because of the danger there. The BP can't be everywhere at all times and these people are getting robbed, raped, beaten, etc. They find people half dead on their properties or have their properties destroyed by garbage and vandalism. I think they have the right to get together and try to protect their property and belongings as well as themselves.

I think the biggest concern with them is that one day they will run into the wrong crowd of crosses (ie drug/human smugglers) and a bunch of them will wind up dead. The border is an extremely dangerous place and the potential for death is pretty high.

 

We get plenty of legitimate asylum cases too. They just aren't coming over the border and they aren't Mexican. The standards for asylum are fairly strict (some wish them to be stricter.)

 

Ah, gotcha. Cheers.

E_S

 

Understandable given the misleading press they are recieving. But lemme ask you this: Is a neighborhood watch vigilantism? Or how about when you see a burgler break in to your next door neighbor's house and you call the cops?

Interesting point. I agree that maybe "vigilante" would be an exaggeration when it comes to the Minutemen, but it also explains why the government can't offically endorse them either.

When you see someone breaking into your neighbor's house and call the police, you're acting on your own. I would suggest that it's your civic duty to do so, but you're not acting in an official capacity. Imagine if the government endorsed the organization, and a member did end up hurting an immigrant, or getting hurt themselves. Would such a result become tied to official policy?

It's best that the Minutemen stay comprised of concerned citizens who simply report illegal activity.

 

It would be far better if the government actually enforced laws, then there would be no need for citizens to do what government refuses to do.

 

It's best that the Minutemen stay comprised of concerned citizens who simply report illegal activity.

You're right. The government shouldn't endorse the Minutemen. Then they could hold sway over where they are can and can't watch the border. I don't trust the government enough on this issue to think that's a good idea.

Conversely, should the cops let a meth house know that the neighbors are watching their house between the hours of X and Y ?

 

I thought the claims that the government was informing on the Minutemen turned out to be speculation as well?

 

The feds have started denying it, but their first responce was this...

According to three documents on the Mexican Secretary of Foreign Relations Web site, the U.S. Border Patrol is to notify the Mexican government as to the location of Minutemen and other civilian border patrol groups when they participate in apprehending illegal immigrants -- and if and when violence is used against border crossers.

A U.S. Customs and Border Protection spokesman confirmed the notification process, describing it as a standard procedure meant to reassure the Mexican government that migrants' rights are being observed.

 

Right, the official notification is only triggered if a "minuteman" uses force against a person or otherwise engages in direct apprehension efforts. This makes sense, which I'm sure is a mutual pact.

It's not like the US government is calling up Mexico and revealing where the Minutmen's observation positions are.

 

Although it honestly wouldn't surprise me. Oh, and I don't think it is really mutual because they don't bother to tell us when armies of drug gangs invade.

 

Right, the official notification is only triggered if a "minuteman" uses force against a person or otherwise engages in direct apprehension efforts. This makes sense, which I'm sure is a mutual pact.

Yet active participation of apprehension by the Minutemen has not happened. They've never detained anyone. Unless you consider notifying the border guard, then rendering aid until they arrive "apprehension."

Which it isn't.

And understand, the instruction sheet the Mexican government hands out to prospective illegal border crossers is to claim Minutemen "abuse" when ever they see them... reguardless of whether it happens or not.

It seems they have taken a page straight out of Amnisty Inernational's hand book.

 

"Here are two interesting pieces on immigration, legal and illegal. Read and pass on, we who live near the border have been asking Washington to protect our borders with no results. Those who live away from the borders are seeing the mass movement of illegals into your area. Read and send a message to your congressperson." Also click on the link Below!

US Citizen Working in Mexico

The following is from a director with SW BELL in Mexico City:

I spent five years working in Mexico.

I worked under a tourist visa for three months and could legally renew it for three more months. After that you were working illegally. I was technically illegal for three weeks waiting on the FM3 approval.

During that six months our Mexican and US Attorneys were working to secure
a permanent work visa called a FM3. It was in addition to my US passport that I had to show each time I entered and left the country. Barbara's was
the same except hers did not permit her to work.

To apply for the FM3 I needed to submit the following notarized originals
(not copies) of my:

1. Birth certificates for Barbara and me.
2. Marriage certificate.
3. High school transcripts and proof of graduation.
4. College transcripts for every college I attended and proof of graduation.
5. Two letters of recommendation from supervisors I had worked for at least one year.
6. A letter from The ST. Louis Chief of Police indicating I had no arrest
record in the US and no outstanding warrants and was "a citizen in good
standing."
7. Finally; I had to write a letter about myself that clearly stated why
there was no Mexican citizen with my skills and why my skills were
important to Mexico. We called it our
"I am the greatest person on earth"
letter. It was fun to write.

All of the above were in English that had to be translated into Spanish
and be certified as legal translations and our signatures notarized. It
produced a folder about 1.5 inches thick with English on the left side and
Spanish on the right.

Once they were completed Barbara and I spent about five hours accompanied
by a Mexican attorney touring Mexican government office locations and being photographed and fingerprinted at least three times. At each location (and we remember at least four locations) we were instructed on Mexican tax, labor, housing, and criminal law and that we were required to obey their laws or face the consequences. We could not protest any of the government's actions or we would be committing a felony. We paid out four thousand dollars in fees and bribes to complete the process. When this was done we could legally bring in our household goods that were held by US customs in Laredo Texas. This meant we rented furniture in Mexico while awaiting our goods. There were extensive fees involved here that the company paid.

We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates and
under contract and compliance with Mexican law.

We were required to get a Mexican drivers license. This was an amazing
process. The company arranged for the licensing agency to come to our
headquarters location with their photography and finger print equipment
and the laminating machine. We showed our US license, were photographed
and fingerprinted again and issued the license instantly after paying out
a six dollar fee. We did not take a written or driving test and never
received instructions on the rules of the road. Our only instruction was never give a policeman your license if stopped and asked. We were instructed to hold it against the inside window away from his grasp. If he got his hands on it you would have to pay ransom to get it back.

We then had to pay and file Mexican income tax annually using the number
of our FM3 as our ID number. The companies Mexican accountants did this for us and we just signed what they prepared. I was about twenty legal size pages annually.

The FM 3 was good for three years and renewable for two more after paying
more fees.

Leaving the country meant turning in the FM#

 

Ahhhhh...Rush is awesome.

But, that would mean that Mexico and el Presidente Fox are lying when they say that there shouldn't be any restrictions to border crossings.

 

Rush and awesome in the same sentence makes the baby Jebus cry.

Here's some poetry from fark. Yes, I love those whacky posters. I feel right at home.

This is the place where we salute the red, white and blue ? not the red, white and green," said Steve Eichler, executive director for the Minuteman Project. "We shall not allow our nation to be invaded and we shall not allow our freedom to be given away.

Right. Maybe the Minutemen are thinking about the Mexican flag, but my impression of the current administration is different. Both those causing the damage and those not speaking out against it out of fear.

Red --> caught red-handed tapping everyone's phones or the river of blood representing the US soldiers who have given their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan, the civilians who've lost their lives in the crossfire and the residents of New Orleans who died because FEMA didn't respond fast enough

White --> all the lies that are issued to either pacify the American public or whip them into a bi-partisan frenzy

Green --> the bottom line, money might not buy you love, but it sure as hell can buy political power

 

The more realistic amount is suggested to be around 193 million people in the next 20 years if the Senate passes an amnesty.

 

I believe the amount of immigration has to be evaluated at regular intervals. I don't think it can be a flat number, as the health of our economy is always in flux.

Some years we can handle more, some years we need more, than other years.

 

I'm all for rights. I would rather they came here as legal immigrants, like my ancestors did. But that's not a big deal to me.

I appreciate the Hispanic culture, I took Spanish for 4 years. I have plenty of Hispanic friends. One whose father used to be an illegal immigrant, and one who is a legal immigrant.

But there is something that I don't like about this. A lot of them (not all, and not including my friends, but it's still a lot) aren't even trying to embrace or appreciate OUR culture. Some of them come here for the benefits, and try not to change anything else. These immigrants don't think of themselves as Americans, they aren't trying to fit in. They are trying to change society to meet their wants and needs. I don't like that. They are trying to change our culture.

But that still wouldn't be a big problem by itself, but the thing is that a lot of them are coming in. Millions. And I heard that in 50 years the majority of America will be Hispanic if current trends continue. Like I said, I have nothing against Hispanic people. But that means that there will be a lot of immigrants in America who will be stubborn and try to keep their culture, and change ours. That's what I am worried about, some of these immigrants coming in here to not only live and work in, but also to change our way of life.

I wouldn't be worried if they were trying to adapt, or at least appreciate and learn from our culture while still hanging on to their old culture. But some of them aren't doing that. I don't know what the percent is, but there are sure to be more of them if the US is half hispanic in 50 years.



In fifty years I don't want to feel like a stranger in my own country.


I don't want to sound mean when I say that or anything, but that's how I feel. I don't want to have to learn new things to fit what they need, it should be the other way around. Personally, I like learning. But I don't want it to have to be required of me, or anyone else. When I'm old, I don't want to feel like a stranger in my own country. Will we have to bend to every wave of immigrants that come here, if they refuse to fit in? It would all become so confusing, and America could become very tense within itself. I'm not the one entering a new country for a new life, so I shouldn't have to learn anything new jbecause of them. It should be the other way around. I know it doesn't count for everyone, I know that, but there are still a lot that do fit into that.

I don't want my homeland to become a foregin country while I'm still living on it. This is what I'm worried about. That is why we should get more control over our borders, to try and regulate this. They should learn English, and show they're willing to adapt to our culture. Not assimilate into it, just live in it, adapt to it.