What truly went wrong with Attack of the clones?

I'm new here (used to peek in occasionally in '99, but that was it), but I wanted to thank some of you for revealing what's been bugging me most about AotC. Not the romance, bad as it was with front-loaded kiss scene and "I am in agony" lines (you're not the only one, Annie!!).

It's definitely the editing. A key example is the scene when Anakin decides to go to Tatooine, saying he has no choice. Then Padmé says she'll go with him.

CUT! THAT'S the place to cut it! It WORKS.

But no, the existing film cuts back to him saying he's sorry. AAAGH. The emotional cap of the scene is ruined, just like that.

That's an extreme example, but stuff like that happens all through the film and has bugged the hell out of me for three years. Now it's great to finally have a name to pin it on besides Lucas' -- Ben Burrt. But, of course, it's Lucas who's ultimately responsible.

Why'd his ex-wife Marcia and him split up, anyway?

 

That's an extreme example, but stuff like that happens all through the film.

Absolutely. The scenes either cut too soon or run too long with too much expository dialogue.

Good point. Welcome back btw.

As for his marriage: they split in '83. And the split wasn't over editing.

 

Like the previous film, Episode II lacked...

[image=http://www.zteamproductions.com/vader/bts/Crook.jpg]

[image=http://www.zteamproductions.com/vader/images/VaderWrestle.jpg]

 

haha thas funny. Is that from a fan film?

 

^
Yup.

behind the scene screen shots from Darth Vader's Phsychic Hotline

 

Originally posted in the "AOTC is the best" thread. I HAD to rebut such a blatantly false statement -- favorite does not equal best (unless you're talking about ESB. Hey, *I* can be biased, too)

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It's better than TPM. But that's faint praise. Terribly disappointing film, because as watchable as some of the action scenes are (Jango vs. Obi-Wan, esp.), the core of the story -- the romance -- is completely mishandled.

--Bad dialogue. Anakin's impassioned speech in the fireplace scene is awful.
--Front-loaded kiss. You're supposed to BUILD UP to the kiss, not plunk it almost at the beginning of the courtship.
--Abrupt cut in the meadow scene. It would have been nice to have shown the "clench" after the rolling in the grass scene (which was dumb, but it could've been effective) to show their growing attraction. Of course, this scene coming AFTER the kiss really hurts its credibility.
--And then, in the end, we have Padmé saying she "truly, deeply" loves Annie after about an hour of the romance subplot being ignored. AAAAAGH. Bad bleeping storytelling.

The other thing I hold against AOTC is the music. The new stuff Williams wrote is fine. But reusing TPM music as generic action music in the Arena and after is unforgivable. WILLIAMS' MUSIC IS NOT GENERIC ACTION MUSIC AND SHOULD NOT EVER BE USED AS SUCH unless it's in a Star Wars video game.

Finally, the lightsaber duels were mostly underwhelming. I really hate how, in the choreography of his fight, Anakin basically "lets" Dooku beat him. Compare with any of the other saber duels' choreography -- those all make sense.

(And why was Dooku's taunt: "Come, Obi-Wan...put me out of my misery" removed from the DVD version? I loved that line.)
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"It isn't complicated at all. The story happens exactly as Clones tells us it did (Sifo ordered the Clones, he died, Tyranus brought in Jango, Army for the republic). This is just another case of, again, years of expectations and "theorizing" blowing up in the face of fans who weren't expecting what it turned out to be."

No it isn't. Up until LoE release Sifo was not the one who ordered the clones. Sidious was. Even Pablo said that the book changed what was accepted at the ranch as the explanation. this has nothing to do with fan expectations.

If you follow your explanation then the in movie explanation for the clones is what?

Sifodyas a never seen character ordered the clones for reasons unknown then died of cause unknown sometime around TPM?

Thats the explanation?

Thats terrible.

 

"All the same in the end I guess, the clones were created by the sith, for the sith's purposes.
That's the important point that gets across."

Not according to LoE, the clones were created by some boring jedi who wanted them to protect the republic and the jedi, and then he got offed before it could happen.

Sidious meanwhile was twiddling his thumbs with no real plan as to what to do next apparently.

 

"I always thought that she thought that because she was part of the loyalist commitee, and the seperatists don't like them much."

But what is the loyalist committee? its only mentioned once in the movie.

Are the loyalist the ones petitioning against the military creation act? or is the loyalist committee simply the opposite of the seperatist movement?

Either way, its once again needlessly complicated, especially since we don't even know why the seperatist want to seperate.

This movie isn't political at all, it simply has a lot of politicians in it, even Legal Blonde2 had more fleshed out politics then this.

Politiics is the debate of issues, race religon, wealth, none of these are brought to the surface or even addressed in AotC. Dooku could of been a religous zealot who believed the Jedi should control the universe, or the loyalist could all be humans, and the seperatist were all dismayed aliens who felt they were being treated second class in the republic.

anything would of been better then nothing.


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"It's definitely the editing. A key example is the scene when Anakin decides to go to Tatooine, saying he has no choice. Then Padmé says she'll go with him.

CUT! THAT'S the place to cut it! It WORKS.

But no, the existing film cuts back to him saying he's sorry. AAAGH. The emotional cap of the scene is ruined, just like that."


Yep thats one of the best examples in the whole film actually. and almost every scene in the movie has at least one thing like that, many have more then one.

 

Poor dialogue and crappy editing aside, here's what bothered me most about AOTC:
First: The entire "love" sub-plot. I realize that it was necessary to advance the story and help bridge the gap between TPM and ANH, but it really was horrible. In my opinion, it is completely unreasonable that Padme would fall "truly, madly" in love with a guy she spent a brief amount of time with a decade ago, and since their reunion, he's done nothing but whine and complain about how Obi-Wan never lets him do anything, practically forces himself upon her, then goes completely psycho and confesses to murdering a bunch of Tusken Raiders... women and children inclusive. Surely she can see that he's a complete maniac.

Second: Boba Fett... "Yeah! Get 'im, Dad!"... that just bothers me.

Thankfully, the novel helped fill in the gaps from the missing scenes and helped to explain a bit more of what Lucas was trying to express in the film... the relationship between Boba and Jango contrasted with that of Anakin and Obi-Wan. Also, the much needed insight into Padme's family life gives the impression that Padme was looking for a romantic relationship due to pressure from her family.

I can only hope that in 20 or so years when the Prequel Special Editions arrive in theatres (sometime after the complete Original Trilogy Director's Cut... Han's girl!) AOTC is almost completely redone... the clone fight at the end can stay. It was pretty cool.

 

The Phantom Menace was slightly better than Attack of the Clones due to the end lightsaber battle.

I can only pass AOTC with a 6/10 because of Yoda's fight with Dooku.

 

Rebel Scumb
Are the loyalist the ones petitioning against the military creation act? or is the loyalist committee simply the opposite of the seperatist movement?

Either way, its once again needlessly complicated, especially since we don't even know why the seperatist want to seperate.

This movie isn't political at all, it simply has a lot of politicians in it, even Legal Blonde2 had more fleshed out politics then this.

Politiics is the debate of issues, race religon, wealth, none of these are brought to the surface or even addressed in AotC. Dooku could of been a religous zealot who believed the Jedi should control the universe, or the loyalist could all be humans, and the seperatist were all dismayed aliens who felt they were being treated second class in the republic.

anything would of been better then nothing.

I always got the impression that the Separatists felt that the Republic wasn?t catering to them; they were putting in more than they were getting out. This could have been built up a bit better, but I think it?s there. My problem is with Dooku?s conversion to the Dark Side. He left the Jedi Council because they were blind and unable to do anything about Qui-Gon?s death, IOW, because they failed to deal with the Sith. Why, then, would he go off and join the people that killed his dear apprentice and that he wants destroyed? I think that Dooku?s character could definatley have used more work.

I think that I can add character motivations to my editing and script list, in lieu of things like Dooku going darkside and Padme falling for Anakin. So we have:

1) Weak script; inexplicable ot just painful to listen to
2) Bad editing; important things left out (factory/arena cut), jarring cuts (Anakin?s search to Obi-Wan?s search), scenes left hanging for too long (Naboo balcony scene above).
3) Unclear character motivations

How?s that for starters?

 

LCJ
The Phantom Menace was slightly better than Attack of the Clones due to the end lightsaber battle.

Personally, I thought that the end lightsaber battle of AotC was better than the end lightsaber battle of TPM. IMHO, the two Jedi seem to use the same 4-5 moves over and over again, Maul fights like a ballerina, the entire thing takes place in a location that seems custom made for for it, complete with the red force fields of plot necessity, and it ends because Maul forgets how to fight. I understand, though, that I'm in the minority on this.

However, I would argue that lightsaber battles, as important as they are, are not decisive. I think that RotJ has a better lightsaber battle than ANH, but I think that ANH is the better film. Likewise with ANH and AotC.

 

"yes ok, but you're all missing the point. the mystery in AotC is not as to whether Dooku is a bad guy or not (thats never in doubt). The mystery is what is his goal, what his purpose for doing the things hes doing? This is the true heart of AotC if you will, and it isn't fully revealed until we see Dooku as a sith. Only then can you start to piece all the elements, the 'whats really going on' bits of AotC together. "

Well Lucas tries to blur the line about Dooku, he removed Jango from the Dooku conference that Obi-Wan overheard and the reason was that Lucas wanted it less obvoius that Dooku was evil Then you have the scene with Obi-Wan and Dooku where Dooku might seem as a good guy. While it is neat that Dooku is telling the truth, we know far too little of him to get any idea if he is being genuine or just messing with Obi-Wan.
So there was an effort from the film makes to make Dooku ambigous and not a full villan until the end.
For me it does not quite work as we know far too little about him and thus there is no reason to think that he is not a villan. Had he been in TPM and had more backstory and character it might have worked better.

As to the mystery, I would say that there is a mystery about who is trying to kill Padme, we have Obi-Wan and Anakin trying hard to solve that mystery but they should just have listened to Padme. So there is a mystery and the first half of the film deals with that.
The problem is that the mystery is solved very early so there are not much of a mystery left.

As to Dookus motivations, those are never explained in the movie, we learn that he is a Sith and they are bad guys but we are not given any deeper motivations of their actions. They are the villans, the do bad things and they want power, not much else. Also we know that Dooku was a jedi that for some reason joined the sith but why he did that is never explained.

Regards
Nordom

 

So there was an effort from the film makes to make Dooku ambigous and not a full villan until the end.
For me it does not quite work as we know far too little about him and thus there is no reason to think that he is not a villan.

I do give Lucas points for trying. Dooku remained ambiguous -- sort of -- up until the end of the Arena battle. But having seen the "Darth Tyranus" toys on sale ahead of time really killed this subplot for me.

 

I tried, I really tried to like the acting in AOTC, but the undeniable truth is that the acting is so very bad, but as I am typing this I am remebering ANH had lousy acting too. I just wanted the prequels to be as good or even better than the OT, that wasn't to much to ask! There's alot of good acting in summer blockbusters, why can't a movie like Star Wars, which is so much more special, can't do what a stupid summer movie can? They're Star Wars movies for crying out loud, all we had hoped for was that these new films would be absolutely the best, and you think George would of wanted that too. Well what I have seen and read about ROTS, is that it will deliver the goods!!

 

What went wrong with AOTC? People asked this same question about "The Empire Strikes Back", 25 years ago. Now, it's regarded as the best SW movie.

So, what went wrong with AOTC? In my opinion - NOTHING! Next question.

 

What went wrong with AOTC? People asked this same question about "The Empire Strikes Back", 25 years ago. Now, it's regarded as the best SW movie.

Wait a minute. WHO said ESB was bad? Are they even still alive? And what were their criticisms? Because, objectively speaking, I can see a great many more flaws in AOTC than I can in ESB, from its editing, comic relief, to its score and scripting. (And from a subjective POV, the two can't even be compared -- ESB holds every ace over AOTC except for special effects.)

Again, I hold up that scene when Anakin says he has to go off to Tatooine as a prime example of stuff that drags the film into the realm of mediocrity -- which is tragic because unlike the dry TPM story, AOTC had the potential to be a great SW film in every way.

 

ESB had received bad reviews and was compared unfavorably to ANH, when it was first released. Of all the OT movies, it made the least money. I even read an essay on the Prequels, in which the author not only bashed TPM and AOTC, he also bashed ESB and ROTJ. Apparently, only ANH was a worth SW movie in this guy's eyes.

I cannot change your mind about AOTC. If you believe that it was an awful film - fine. But I refuse to accept your opinion. As far as I'm concerned, it's the second best SW movie, after ESB.

 

But I refuse to accept your opinion.

So, what truly went wrong with AOTC?

 

Some people don't think ANYTHING went truly wrong with AOTC.

 

I can't fathom how that is. But at the same time I envy those people.

 

Just looking at Rottentomatoes.com, ANH scores 93%, ESB 98%, and RotJ 80%. TPM sits at 62% and AotC at 65%. I?m not sure how helpful that is, but it gives an idea of the acclaim that the films received.

link

AotC annoys me more than TPM does in many ways, because I think that it has so much potential. It would only take a few edits and re-writing a handful of lines to vastly improve the film IMHO.

 

Yeah exactly.

Its been said many times, AOTC had 10 times the potential of TPM but never comes close to realizing it, mostly as you say due to sloppy mistakes, while TPM has much less potential and more or less meets it a few issues aside.

For what TPM is, essenitally a disney film but with the added depth of the Sidious story lurking in the backdrop, it pulls it off well. There are plenty of conceptual things that could make it better: Naboo being alderaan, Obi-wan being the one finding and wanting to train anakin, anakin being older, Anakin not building C3P0, Darth Maul having more screentime and keeping Sidious to just the one scene on the balcony, explain properly the motivations of the federation and establish their threat to Naboo as a bit more dire, and maybe tone down Jarjar slightly (though I dont mind him much, but it is a bit excessive) then yeah the movie would be really solid

But all in all the movie works as a movie. Judged purely on what it is out of context of the saga I think its a great movie.

AOTC on the other hand does not have that going for it. Out of context of the saga, looking purely at what it is, its poorly made in so many key areas. Even the things that are always top notch in SW, music, SFX, editing, sound design, are all weaker in this episode. Sure some of the FX are amazing, but I think ILM was spread to thin, and ultimately I feel TPM's FX are already aging better then AOTCs.


If TPM's potential is 10, then it probably is about an 8 or 9. If AOTCs potential is 50, then its probably about a 20. So TPM achieves 85 to 90% of its pontenial while AOTC only achieves about 40 to 50%...

if such a thing is quantifiable, which it isn't

 

"As for his marriage: they split in '83. And the split wasn't over editing."

If I remember correctly, Marcia had an affair. End of marriage. That's why George hasn't remarried. He doesn't want to get burned again.